Please and thank you are such lovely words

[seaforths]

Gwyn,

Thanks for your post. I think you have actually got to the route of the problem and some people's expectations are very different. I would not, as I said previously, consider a topic I had started to research a relative, or anything else, to be exclusive to me and if anyone else was travelling a similar road with a relative then hey! Jump on board! Something might emerge that could be mutually beneficial or it might not but no harm done. Your suggestion is helpful and quite reasoned and I will stick my toe in the water and ask next time.

Also, and this is not (in case anyone takes umbrage) meant in any disrespectful way but I think that many members that have been on this Forum a long time have forgotten what it is like for new people. They have so much experience that what is second nature to them is baffling to others. A flow chart would be very good too. It is also a little bit like buying something new that needs to be set-up or assembled. You will get people like myself that are sad enough to sit down and read through the instructions first and then set about the task with the instructions beside me and I will refer to them. Others may already have some experience and only refer to instructions if needed and get on with it. While some will have absolutely no experience, cast the instructions aside and blunder through. A PDF could be produced that might be downloaded, with a contents page, flow charts, list of useful web addresses etc. An index of some of the very basic acronyms likely to be seen. There will always be an application of the old adage you can lead a horse to water...but at least the information will be in a central place and there are a some like myself who be grateful.

The LLT is a great resource and I use it frequently but as a new person I even found that daunting too. Trying to become acquainted with both sites and the myriad of acronyms has taken some time for me. Initial thoughts as a brand new person are still fresh in my memory; things like what is LLT? Oh it's short for...What the hell is a Mod? What does OP mean? What's the difference between an MIC and Medal Roll? Some people will be inwardly/outwardly chuckling at this but everything brought together - it can be a steep learning curve for some.

I do understand too Gwyn about etiquette and telling people how to behave is not a good idea but I get the feeling there is an etiquette and it is unwritten and as long as some salient points of it remain unwritten then misunderstandings (for I am sure that is what many are) are bound to arise. In the same vein you don't have to tell people how to behave but basics could be worded as helpful suggestions for those not having used any type of forum in the past. I agree you can't possibly cover every little thing. It needs to be approached from the mind of someone who knows absolutely nothing to help those people and those who have some experience just draw on what they need.

Thankfully, many of the experienced Forum members have patience and kindness in abundance and exercise it frequently! I didn't want this to sound all gloom, doom and despondency because it isn't and you can't please ALL of the people ALL of the time nor do you want an unwieldy tome that will put people off.

Thanks again Gwyn

[Dragon]

I don't understand the abbreviations either. I would have liked a mouse-hover option which flashed up the explanation if wished. Having said that, I don't like human beings' lives and deaths reduced to initialisms. Their death, the most important and ghastly thing they could go through, being reduced to three letters: KIA? It offends me like seeing DNR on my mum's end-of-life pathway plan did: it's so casual and dismissive of the human being. It's utterly incapable of nuancing. Naturally some abbreviations save writing out a lot of words: I used LLT.

Of course, some people love the abbreviations and the code: it creates a linguistic barrier so Those Who Know are rather special. The Guardians of the Great War / the rest (the great mass consisting of everyone else). For some it creates a boundary closed community. I think that a lot of problems on forums derive from the weird mechanics of interactions and the way people are enabled to create personas, masks and self-puffery.

I'm afraid I rarely read instructions, especially those from Ikea. Last time I did, I nearly ended up electrocuted. Once frizzled, twice shy.

Maybe consumer feedback in the form of something like a little questionnaire triggered automatically after a new user's tenth post might highlight the problems you say you found.

Gwyn

PS For the avoidance of doubt, I realise that the majority of regular forum users are nice people, kind to animals, generous to each other, polite, etc etc.

[geraint]

When all is said and done (and it probably hasn't been yet), when compared with other websites this is still a very pleasant and well-run forum with mostly sensible and helpful members.

Moonraker

Well said that man!

[seaforths]

Sorry to hear of your ikea experience and hope the fast tan has now worn off! I bought one of those self assembly TV/video cabinets years ago and having enough bits left for a matching vegetable rack I tend to read instructions before and during - I guess my spatial reasoning must be rubbish but at least it wasn't life threatening.

Yes, I agree some acronyms are in the interests of brevity, others leave a bitter taste, also that some people work on the basis that knowledge is power and the knowledge (thus power) should therefore not be imparted otherwise the power becomes diluted. Mostly I have seen people only too happy to share a little information and timely advice to someone like myself who actually enjoys going off and carrying out the research part myself. But I couldn't have found out some of the things without help from others. By going away and researching and collecting resources along the way I can now help other people too with bits of information to help them along their way.

I also need to learn to be a little less sensitive and when things are at school playground level (the meaning could be interpreted as such 'my train set/ball - go away') is to do exactly that and not be so easily offended :-)

Thanks for your thoughts

[KIRKY]

I may have been guilty of not thanking in past but it is normally when I have had a response after a long period of time and do not realise someone else has responded, so to anyone who I might have not thanked, thanks!

Tony

[Stoppage Drill]

For those who must have thanks and acknowledgements, I say remember the prayer of Ignatius Loyola.

Teach us, good Lord, to serve thee as thou deservest;

To give, and not to count the cost,

to fight, and not to heed the wounds,

to toil, and not to seek for rest,

to labour, and not to ask for any reward,

save that of knowing that we do thy will.

It was my Company Collect - often put over as

"Don't expect any help.

Don't expect any thanks

Don't ask for any leave.

And you won't be disappointed.

Amen. "

[Chris Foster]

And In the words of my nan

"Don't forget your P's & Q's "

[Anneca]

Manners (For a Child of 1918)

My grandfather said to me

as we sat on the wagon seat,

"Be sure to remember to always

speak to everyone you meet."

We met a stranger on foot.

My grandfather's whip tapped his hat.

"Good day, sir. Good day. A fine day."

And I said it and bowed where I sat.

Then we overtook a boy we knew

with his big pet crow on his shoulder.

"Always offer everyone a ride;

don't forget that when you get older,"

my grandfather said. So Willy

climbed up with us, but the crow

gave a "Caw!" and flew off. I was worried.

How would he know where to go?

But he flew a little way at a time

from fence post to fence post, ahead;

and when Willy whistled he answered.

"A fine bird," my grandfather said,

"and he's well brought up. See, he answers

nicely when he's spoken to.

Man or beast, that's good manners.

Be sure that you both always do."

When automobiles went by,

the dust hid the people's faces,

but we shouted "Good day! Good day!

Fine day!" at the top of our voices.

When we came to Hustler Hill,

he said that the mare was tired,

so we all got down and walked,

as our good manners required.

(Elizabeth Bishop)

[Chris_Baker]

A motto for the forum (and LLT for that matter): "Please use the search first. Thank you."

[Dragon]

While I agree that people would probably find it productive to use the search facility, I think if I were new and trying to find out about my grandfather, I wouldn't have a clue what terms to search on. His surname? Not with a name like ours. His regiment or unit? Five thousand references later... I know someone in the family said he was wounded at Mons (he wasn't, actually), so do I try Mons? What abourt searching on "hospital", or "leg wounds", or....

I honestly think that experienced members have forgotten what it's like to be in a state of total ignorance.

If I want my grandad's military history, I will pay someone to do it for me. I really would not know where to start. I have his service number.. what do I do with it? The Long, Long Trail is a model of clarity and it sets out really clearly what trails to follow, but there's a gap between being told that it is The Place To Start, (which it probably usually is) and actually launching off on to the project. (And I do have some training in historical method; a lot of people don't have any experience at all.)

That's making the assumption that a lot of new users want to trace the histories of dead people. It's obviously a lot simpler to use the search engine on straighforward categories, especially if the search terms can be made quite precise.

Gwyn

[seaforths]

FLOWCHART GWYN!

Sorry, I'm shouting! I have researched my granddad - still am - but it is probably one of the main reasons why people come to the Forum. Actually I started with one of Granddad's cousins who was killed and granddad at the same time - still wading through cousins and great uncles...enough I won't bore you with the details.

I am still much in favour of your idea of a flowchart for new people a pdf that can be downloaded bring all the other helpful hints and tips and do this do that together with a contents/index for acronyms but... back to flowchart. Along the lines of was he killed? yes/no...do you have a service number yes/no....do you know his Battalion yes/no. you will eventually end up saying get the diaries if you want to know a lot more so put links/web addresses in the flowchart. And words of wisdom from Chris (I believe) if you want to know even more go up the hierarchy of diaries.

You could argue that by doing a flowchart to tell a new person which sites to search for Medal cards and diaries etc. is spoon feeding but then are they not already getting that here through questions. It can't possibly cover everything, some research is quite complex and it also depends to what depth the individual wants to go in terms of information

But I can honestly say I have followed a similar pattern for each relative the only times I have become unstuck is for those not in Infantry. I haven't a scooby where to look for two ASC for example but as I have progressed I have managed to learn more and use LLT more often but it has taken time and patience and I still have a lot of work to do. When I get stuck, reach a dead end, get out of my depth of experience it will invite a question on the Forum.

Gwyn might agree here - the questions come thicker and faster without any guidance or making the links explicit on where to go and what to do. Some of the early stuff is geneneric and would fit into a flowchart quite nicely.

Marjorie

[Muerrisch]

Easily the best sort of person to write a pdf., flow chart, aide to new folk is someone who has recently experienced the dubious joys of cracking the system, is it not?

I was struggling with a bell-ringing problem and my mentor/ teacher, hugely experienced, could not simplify the matter enough for enlightenment. "Let me!" said someone "I cracked that last month, and so I know all about it!"

And he did.

And I do.

[CDR. Shaun Chapman]

I have always said thanks to those who have assisted me in finding information . . . If I missed a thank you I repeat again . . . thanks to all those giving me a helping hand on my voyage of discovery . . .