Susan Tall Posted 18 November , 2012 Share Posted 18 November , 2012 I need some help with this photo please. I've been told these are recovering soldiers at the Kenilworth Red Cross Hospital but these don't look like "hospital blues". The jackets are all the same although some have waistcoats and others do not. Any ideas? Sue Tall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 18 November , 2012 Share Posted 18 November , 2012 Actually if you look at detail tsuch as lapels, number of buttons etc the jackets are not all the same. I think these men are all in civvies.. Before dry cleaning mens suits often got that crumpled look as they were taken apart, washed and sewn back together. If you were rich you could afford to have this done professionally (if you were super rich when your suit got dirty you gave it to the undergardener and got a new one from your tailor) Most men had to rely on wives, mothers, big sisters etc for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Tall Posted 18 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2012 Thanks centurion - I forgot to count the buttons! I also think the men are in civvies. The photo could well have been taken in the grounds of our Red Cross hospital but who the men are remains a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 18 November , 2012 Share Posted 18 November , 2012 Possibly men who had 'recovered' but were reckoned no longer fit for soldiering and were being discharged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2012 Share Posted 18 November , 2012 I think they are hospital blues, but just of a different pattern without a white lining. The sheer scale required additional suppliers and there was some small variation in some patterns. Even with jackets with 4 buttons it was not uncommon to roll the uppermost button and hole back to form a lapel more like that of a civilian suit, although I am not saying that is what has happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 I would agree with Mr C, a couple of men are wearing vests, I ahve not seen any previous hospital uniform photos that show vests\ it appears they are all wearing highly polished boots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 I would agree with Mr C, a couple of men are wearing vests, I ahve not seen any previous hospital uniform photos that show vests\ it appears they are all wearing highly polished boots A vest (waistcoat - British) was definitely available, but not always issued or worn. It is unusual that none of them are wearing head dress when outdoors and there are no obvious bandages, splints or slings, but nevertheless I believe they are wearing a pattern of hospital blues (one that I have seen before). The white shirts and similarly hued ties and suits, whilst not incontrovertible evidence, are a good indicator. In the group photo enclosed the men at front right and rear left are wearing the same pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 This lone soldier also wears the pattern but with his red tie most unusually (and individually) worn as a bow tie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 If they are wearing hospital blues then they must be wearing a variety of patterns as close scrutiny will reveal. The lapels are of different lengths resulting in different numbers of buttons. Some men in the photo have jackets with two buttons - others with four or more. The size and colour of buttons also appear to vary.Whilst I believe that hospital blues could vary between hospitals (as some procured locally) it would seem unlikely that men from the same hospital would wear such an un uniform selection. Robin 2 At the time it was quite usual for civilians to wear boots rather than shoes, especially working or lower middle class civilians. There is a well known music hall song about a man who goes to his mother's funeral wearing brown boots instead of black. BTW in Britain a vest is something you wear under the shirt (except in some parts of the North of England and Scotland were it appears to be sometimes worn instead of a shirt - see Rab C Nesbit) and does not button all the way down. As these men are in Britain they are wearing waistcoats (wescuts). In North America they could well be wearing vests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 If they are wearing hospital blues then they must be wearing a variety of patterns as close scrutiny will reveal. The lapels are of different lengths resulting in different numbers of buttons. Some men in the photo have jackets with two buttons - others with four or more. The size and colour of buttons also appear to vary.Whilst I believe that hospital blues could vary between hospitals (as some procured locally) it would seem unlikely that men from the same hospital would wear such an un uniform selection. The difference in buttons and length of rever is achieved by rolling and was quite common with hospital blues. I will leave it to others to make their own judgement based on what has been offered by all those who have contributed to this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 The difference in buttons and length of rever is achieved by rolling Can you explain what this means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 Can you explain what this means? One rolls the lapels and thus elongates the length of the rever, it was and (in some circles) still is quite common on sports jackets. If you look at many images of Hospital Blues, of all types, it is very apparent and was quite a common way to alter the general appearance and more closely match the length of the body of men of varying height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 I go with the view that they're locally made hospital suits - and a version of hospital blues. I find them a relatively 'uniform' assortment, and don't agree that they would be identical in men from the same hospital. I have many images here of men in hospital blues and the variation within individual hospitals is enormous - part of one image attached from a very large hospital demonstrating a variety which seems common. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 On all the HBs in Sues photo one can see button holes in one of the folded back lapels. These appear to be absent in the photo in the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 I go with the view that they're locally made hospital suits - and a version of hospital blues. I find them a relatively 'uniform' assortment, and don't agree that they would be identical in men from the same hospital. I have many images here of men in hospital blues and the variation within individual hospitals is enormous - part of one image attached from a very large hospital demonstrating a variety which seems common. Sue Yes Sue, that is spot on and typical of the varying types over the period. Interestingly the type without a white lining became the standard version in WW2, when a greater degree of uniformity of design became possible. On your OP all but the extreme left hand man have rolled their lapels to create longer revers and if you look carefully you can see the buttons/buttonholes exposed accordingly. The most unusual aspect is that the skirts have either been cut originally, or tailored after issue to achieve a curved front, rather than the more common vertical aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 It's a really interesting photo but I don't think it's locally made Hospital Blue. The blue colour usually had little variation but many were grey and there was certainly quite a variation of shades of grey. I have a few original pieces and have pored over plenty of photos looking for reference and the one thing I have noticed is that no matter if they have the original white-faced stand collars, or the suit style collar, or even the unusual 'Convalescent Coats' shown below (excluding the Doctors coat on the right), all of them seem to be straight cut at the bottom and don't have rounded lower edges. Feel free to dig out lots of photos proving me wrong but, even in the photos shown in this thread, those which are Hospital Blues beyond dispute are all cut straight across the bottoms and don't have curved front edges. As Hospital uniforms were always returned to be reused I can't see any reason why any would be tailored. My money is on civvie suits. Maybe it was the escape committee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Tall Posted 19 November , 2012 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2012 Great to see you all debating whether they are hospital blues or not. I'm now wondering about the pockets as I read somewhere that hospital blues didn't have any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 19 November , 2012 Share Posted 19 November , 2012 I notice that in the post #13 photo some are clearly in hospital blues with the distinct white turned back lapels and others aren’t - these don't look too dissimilar to the men in the post #1 photo. Did such convalescing hospitals have male orderlies I wonder? Once a man had recovered to the point he could help others and push wheel chairs around etc, were they retained in a more casual 'civvies’' type uniform? Will the pockets contain the mens AB64? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Could they be wearing suites for Discharged Soldiers? I know nothing about these suites except that they came with Jacket, Trousers and Waistcoat and I believe that IIRC they came in different colours--like Blue and Brown. Joe Sweeney PS Frogsmile--I like your photo showing the two Scots soldiers in the back wearing SD caps. SR and Gordon's I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Feel free to dig out lots of photos proving me wrong but, even in the photos shown in this thread, those which are Hospital Blues beyond dispute are all cut straight across the bottoms and don't have curved front edges. The common WW2 pattern of Hospital Blues has the heavily curved corners and the lower patch pockets, as opposed to the common WW1 pattern (with the distinctive white lining that contrasts on the turn-ups and lapels), eg: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-British-Army-Issue-Hospital-Blues-Jacket-and-Tie-/221148103404?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item337d7442ec But this pattern is also less commonly seen in WW1, as in this picture below, where it is being worn alongside the more common pattern: http://postimage.org/image/lju4mpx6b/ I think the chaps in the original photo are just fairly uniformly wearing the less commonly encountered pattern of Hospital Blues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 "But this pattern is also less commonly seen in WW1, as in this picture below, where it is being worn alongside the more common pattern" Morning Andrew, Well done! Your Kiwi looks more like a gentleman farmer than a recuperating soldier but his jacket definitely looks just like some of those in the original post. I bears a lot of similarities to the WW2 style. I was pleased to come across the photo of men wearing the Convalescent Coat in my last post as I have had one for years and had never found a photograph of them being worn until last night! Thanks again. Joe - do you have any RACD notes about different styles of Hospital uniform? I think the white-faced style was Victorian but I would be interested to know more about the Convalescent Coats. Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 A small point, but this order of dress is "Hospital Blue", in the singular, which is how it would always have been referred to at the time. "Hospital Blues" is something else: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 I notice that in the post #13 photo some are clearly in hospital blues with the distinct white turned back lapels and others aren’t - these don't look too dissimilar to the men in the post #1 photo. Did such convalescing hospitals have male orderlies I wonder? Once a man had recovered to the point he could help others and push wheel chairs around etc, were they retained in a more casual 'civvies’' type uniform? Will the pockets contain the mens AB64? Dave Dave if you read back through the thread you will see that the two types, with and without the white lining, are mentioned. Pockets were apparent in one type and not so in the other, although they might perhaps have been on the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now