The Lighthorsemen

[Wienand Drenth]

Hello,

Just saw this movie in the local rental store the other day. I am wondering how accurate this movie is, both with respect to the conduct of battle as to the grand storyline. Perhaps someone with more insight in these matters can comment.

One thing I found a bit strange (but I suppose it will be correct) was that the horsemen dismounted in full sight of the enemy prior to attack. Was this standard operation procedure? In the end I liked the movie. Despite the horror and gruelty of it all, the final charge on Beersheba was amazing to see.

Wienand

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

Like many movies there is truth and ficton.

The movie only follows the unit/Regt of the 4th ALHR. If you check this battle there were two ALHR that charged together the 4th and 12th ALHR's.

Now as to tactic's they are right. The LH was basicly a Mounted Infantry unit and the tactic's of the day had the men dismount to fight on foot.

They had done this all during the battles of Egypt and later in Palestine and they were not trained in the idea of the charge like British Horse. But many LH Officers/soldiers being trained in the British idea had always wanted to do this but never got the chance till Beersheba.

There was a British Intell officer called Meinethargen (sorry spelling) who did do those things that the movie shows as well as many other tricks not shown, one other was the dropping of Opum cigaretts to the Turks.

It is an interesting area if you can find any books on it.

Cheers

S.B

[Captain Dave]

The movie is not too far off the truth. Certainly it was a feat of arms done by the Australians that probably warrants more attention than it gets. You always hear the last great charge was the British in North Africa during the 1890's (I think?) while these were Mounted Rifles, and not Cavalry, they still did a fairly effective assault on a well held position, and carried it off successfully. It was an unconventional use of troops that really paid off.

In the NZ Official History of the Mounted Rifles published in 1921, they lavish a great deal of respect and praise over the action of the Australian units involved. NZ Mtd rifles were there, but in flank protection if I recall, and did not acheive the same deal of success as they used the standard tactics of dismounting and advancing on foot.

On the down side, because it was so effective, Australian Light Horse Units were still training to charge the enemy with sword bayonets up until the 1930's.

[Wienand Drenth]

Thanks to both of you for the replies!

Now as to tactic's they are right. The LH was basicly a Mounted Infantry unit and the tactic's of the day had the men dismount to fight on foot.

I think this looked a bit odd in the movie because the terrain was relatively flat and featureless. In that light, I would say that Mounted Infantry (like Light Horse) can be compared to lorried infantry of ww2, with the horses (lorries) bringing the soldiers to the battlefield, but not per se to the enemy. And vice versa, being mounted this enabled fast movement between battlefields etc. (Mechanized/armoured infantry might be compared to conventional cavalry then.)

I was surprised to learn that they suffered relatively few casualties. Does that say something about Tukish markmanship, or about the difficulty of hitting a fast moving target?

It is an interesting area if you can find any books on it.

Do you know of any, apart from Official Histories etc? I am particularly interested in that Intelligence officer Meinertzhagen. No memoirs?

You always hear the last great charge was the British in North Africa during the 1890's (I think?)

Think this was the Battle of Omdurman in 1898 with 21st Lancers.

Do you know why they trained with the bayonet? It seems to me less effective than a real sword. Did it have to do with its psychological impact?

Cheers,

Wienand

[NIGEL]

I remember watching the early stages of WW2 on a programme called all our yesterdays and the Polish Army sent their Calvalry against the advancing German Pansers-----------No need to ask what happened, but there werent many aplications to join the Polish Cavalry after that.

[armourersergeant]

Thanks to both of you for the replies!

Now as to tactic's they are right. The LH was basicly a Mounted Infantry unit and the tactic's of the day had the men dismount to fight on foot.

I think this looked a bit odd in the movie because the terrain was relatively flat and featureless. In that light, I would say that Mounted Infantry (like Light Horse) can be compared to lorried infantry of ww2, with the horses (lorries) bringing the soldiers to the battlefield, but not per se to the enemy. And vice versa, being mounted this enabled fast movement between battlefields etc. (Mechanized/armoured infantry might be compared to conventional cavalry then.)

I was surprised to learn that they suffered relatively few casualties. Does that say something about Tukish markmanship, or about the difficulty of hitting a fast moving target?

It is an interesting area if you can find any books on it.

Do you know of any, apart from Official Histories etc? I am particularly interested in that Intelligence officer Meinertzhagen. No memoirs?

You always hear the last great charge was the British in North Africa during the 1890's (I think?)

Think this was the Battle of Omdurman in 1898 with 21st Lancers.

Do you know why they trained with the bayonet? It seems to me less effective than a real sword. Did it have to do with its psychological impact?

Cheers,

Wienand

Warrior..the legend of Colonel Richard Meinetxhagen is available via Amazon.

also they charged with bayonettes not out of choice but it was all they had to hand.

The turks alledgedly forgot to change the sights range and thus were firing over the horsemen as they came in.

Also didnt some lancers charge in 1914?

regards

Arm.

[armourersergeant]

I remember watching the early stages of WW2 on a programme called all our yesterdays and the Polish Army sent their Calvalry against the advancing German Pansers-----------No need to ask what happened, but there werent many aplications to join the Polish Cavalry after that.

Nigel,

One of the great myths of WW2 is that the Polish Cavalry charged the German tanks in 1939. this not stricktly true, they were surprised whilst in the open by the Germans and thus the legend was born and I am sure elaborated by the Germans and the press that later witnessed the battlefield. I think i am right in saying that they mainly fought as mounted infantry rather than cavalry.

Polish history is really fascinating and much mis understood. There are one or two other enthusiasts here and on the ww2 site if you fancy a fascinating topic other than those already covered by yourself.

regards

Arm.

[Wienand Drenth]

Warrior..the legend of Colonel Richard Meinetxhagen is available via Amazon.

also they charged with bayonettes not out of choice but it was all they had to hand.

The turks alledgedly forgot to change the sights range and thus were firing over the horsemen as they came in.

Also didnt some lancers charge in 1914?

Hello,

Thank you for the title! Intruiging character, so I will obtain the book.

With my comment on charging with the bayonet I was not referring to the assault on Beersheba, but on the comment by Cpt Dave earlier on training of the Light Horse. For moral etc I am sure that wielding a bayonet is better than nothing.

I seem to recall initial clash between German and British troops was indeed between cavalry. As for the last cavalry charge in (British) military history, I belief some Yeomanry regiment (Cheshires?) was mounted when the Allies captured Syria from the Vichy French in 1941.

Cheers,

Wienand

[Guest woodyudet]

Of coures Mounted infantry are still around ... viz Afghanistan and Sudan ... lots of militias riding horses [and camels!] while carrying AK 47s ... if petrol goes up in price too much, no doubt Brown and Hoon will convert the royal armoured corps back to horses to save money ... :-)

[NIGEL]

SSSSHHH !!!!!!!!

[Wienand Drenth]

please don't let mr Hoon hear your plans.. horses are expensive too so he might think of converting the whole RAC to foot soldiers (with emphasis on foot, as mobile infantry also consume expensive petrol)

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

Another reason for the LH to use the Bayonet was that sword drill had been started in the LH in preperation for the issue of swords. The Bayonet being to hand they could practice with them untill swords showed up.

Only some three Brigades were converted in July 1918 to sword carrying units. two other LH Brigades refuzed to be issued.

Of cause it is well known that there was a British Brigade of Yeomanry also near the charge area which did have swords but the 4th LH Bde was closer but not together as the 11th LH was on a srceening roll and took time to reform.

As Chavuel (Australian Corps Commander) said "If every I did favor the LH then its was that day". Or words to that effect.

For the use of the Mounted Infantry goes back to the way we (Australians) were training for the Boer War and after so when the WWI came along that is what we knew. Now many officers had British Training or had read British books on the use of Horse so they were always intersted in useing other tactic's.

S.B

[petrick]

Steve,

What about the light horse issued with lances? A purely cavalry weapon. Were they merely issued as to escort pow? Then there we have the photgraph taken of "el awrence with ALH troopers carrieng lances. Lawrence under arrest?

And for Nigel

From Polish sources have found out that the lancers never attacked tanks with lances and swords. German propaganda also made a cinema feature with one hacking at the barrel of a tank.

This never happened. Their was an italian axes journalist who visited the batlefield were the polish "lancers"were surprised. seems they even were dismounted and made upp the story. thus becoming the legend.

Would you believe that any sane men . Who already knew tanks would attack with sabre and lance. come on. They were brave but not supid.

coo-ee

patrick

[Killratio]

All,

On the subject of charging with bayonets, the 1907 was a "Sword Bayonet". Whilst I am in no way suggesting that it is as good as a Cavalry Sabre, it is a handy weapon.

I have, amongst others, a 1913 Enfield Hooked Quillon (sadly, removed). It is wonderfully well balanced and at 22 inches, more than enough to split a head, cut a limb to the bone and break it (but probably not sever it). It can be wielded like a sword and throws its weight nicely over the tip.

The later (1941 manufactured) Lithgow is not anywhere near as nice to swing and is slightly lighter.

In short, I would rather have the guy on the horse with a 1907, with me than agin me.

regards

Darryl

[NIGEL]

The Poles attacking German Tanks-------All i remember is it was in the programe called All Our Yesterdays which was all about WW2 and repeated several times since the 1960s, if anybody else saw the first episodes they would remember this aswell---if its wrong, and i am sure you are correct,---- well.

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

Yes two Milita Regt's were Lancers or at lest had it in their title and did carry them on parade but other then the odd tent pegging and such they were not taught to form up in Troop/Sqn, Regt frontage and Charge as per the British or other Lancer Regt's of History.

But no dought there would have been some reading of books and the odd Officer to have served in the British Army or with them in the Boer War that knew all about the use of this weapon in a charge. And would have practiced this from time to time but there main job was Mounted Infantry.

Even now days during my time with the 2nd Cav Regt we had the lance as a display weapon for parades and as file markers on Regt/Sqn parades.

S.B

[Wienand Drenth]

Steve,

Many thanks for the updates on the LH. Interesting to learn that the some of the LH converted to swords. That would mean their operational role would change as well from mounted infantry to cavalry. What was the motivation for doing so? Did GHQ EEF envisage the operations to become more mobile and flexible, and henceforth they needed more cavalry?

As for the use of Mounted Infantry, in the 1860's during the British volunter movement, several Corps of Mounted Rifle Volunteers were formed throughout the country. As the name suggests, this was not Yeomanry, which by then were Lancers, Dragoon or Hussars, but real Mounted Infantry. All were disbanded before 1900, except for the 1st Fifeshire and 1st Forfarshire LH Vols which in 1908 became the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry.

But, to return to the Great War, weren't all British cavalry trained as Mounted Infantry, besides their conventional lance or sword practise?

Wienand

[Guest stevenbec]

Yes mate,

The three Brgades were part of Allenby's great drive of Sept 1918 and were issued swords for this.

The two Bde's not issued were still on the eastern area near the Jordan river.

Our maj formation and enlargement of the Milita forces in Australia came about because of what was happening in the UK in the 1860's. This was further add to in the 1870's by the first forming of a regular permant forces under an Army and Navy Act.

All states raised their own units and although named as Hussar's and Lancer's the main units were Mounted Rifles.

There were no permant military units but for an Instruction and garrison Artillary all other units being Milita or Territorials in your speak.

All were trained in the use of Mounted Infantry/Rifles tactic's and as such used this in the Boer War.

Hope you can follow the above.

S.B

[Captain Dave]

Mounted Rifles were also to be found in NZ right up till the mid 1940's, as home defence units.

As an aside note, the NZ Army recently put the Lemon Squeezer Hat into the role of purely ceremonial (state occassions etc) and have reissued the Mounted Rifles Hat. This follows the aquisition of the NZLAV (Canadian gen 3 variant) and the re roling of the Regular Force Infantry from light into motorised Infantry. Hence the direct linkage with the mtd rifles.

The Mounted rifles hat looks similar to the Aussie slouch hat, but is not turned up on the side. The anoying thing is that the Army seems to be determined to wear it like a Lemon Squeezer (straight edged), instead of as a slouch hat which is how you saw it being used till the LS took over in 1917. (Although the Mtd Rifles Retained it all the way through to present day)

Useless info huh?

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Actually as an uncredited extra on the film the Lighthorseman (as well as on Breaker Morant) it was a good film to be part of and was as acurate as they could get within the limits of the locale, resources and cost.

Bear in mind that the film was based very loosely on Forty Thousand Horseman by Chauval (a relation of THE Chauval) made in 1940 using the Militia Light Horse Regiments in the Bondi Sandhills.

The scene of the charge of Beersheeba and the camera angles were almost one for one replicas of the earlier film (and done much better than the latter film). You should also note that the Light Horse regiments involved in the action actually recreated it later in Palestine where it was filmed for the newsreels (but not at the actual location). A short extract of this film appears in Forty Thousand Horseman.

(In the Lighthorseman I played a Turk, British and Australian depending on the scene and in between time provided mobile showers to the cast and crew as part of Oz Army support (most of the extras were drawn from the Army/Army Reserve) which was provided free of charge in those days....)

Unfortunately, the equipment I was interested in was only loaned to the production ...

Edward

[Geoff S]

It is also interesting, and often overlooked that the 5th Australian Light Horse regiment galloped 2,000 yards with bayonets to capture Katia Oasis in August 1916, well before the famous Beersheeba assault.

This was supposedly the first time mounted troops ever charged an enemy with bayonets fixed on rifles as lances.

Cheers

Geoff S

[Bryn]

Edward,

I couldn't overlook it! As a boy who grew up in the Sutherland shire, who still supports the Cronulla Sharks, and who sometimes used to play in the sandhills that the movie was filmed in, I can safely say that there are no sandhills at Bondi, and that 'Forty Thousand Horsemen' was filmed in the sandhills at Wanda, near Cronulla.

Regards,

Bryn, formerly of Gymea Bay

[Wienand Drenth]

Thanks all for the additions. It is a pity that such masterworks are so unknown here in the Netherlands. In general Great War movies are seldom broadcasted on tv I would assume such movies are much more popular in Oz. And thanks Geoff for mentioning the 5th Light Horse attack. Is there some documentation as to why they used bayonets on that occasion?

Slightly off topic, but Bersheeba was in the news today because of some bombings.

Wienand

[montbrehain]

thought this may be of interest ? from the opening night in britain. sorry its so big. (oo er mrs!!) bayonets look about 2 foot too long dont they? I hear through the grapevine that next year there may be some kind of gathering in beersheba ? dependant on current events of course.

[bluedog]

Edward

Sorry to be a pain but the "40000 Horsemen" was filmed

in the Cronulla sandhills not the Bondi sandhills.

Regards

Peter