Guest dinamo Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 I have a great uncle who was killed in WW1. He is not on his village memorial-Whittington, Staffs. Is there any way this can be rectified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 If he isnt on the memorial, perhaps when the villagers asked if the family wanted his name included they declined. To get his name included now is not impossible, but you will need to find out who has assumed responsibility for the memorial. It could be the Parish or local council. Approaches could be made to them to seewhat is needed to achieve you aim. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 Dinamo Welcome to the Forum. As Ian indicates, there may well have been family reasons why he wasnt included at the time. As one of the members of this Forum who research local memorials, I have come across names of men who havnt been included. There are three who I reckon have good connections with the area and, perhaps, could have been included. However, I take the decision not to pursue these cases as my own views might be different from the families. However, when it came to my own great uncle (as is the case with you), I had no such qualms. I regarded myself as a sort of "custodian of the family history" and decided that, if I wanted him added, then it should be OK. I approached the local council who more more than helpful (not all are) and Great Uncle Ben (see my signature below) was added to the memorial last year. Good luck. Don't forget to let us know how you get on. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 I would follow the excellent advice above. Find the owner and then ask about their policy concerning new names (if they have one). It will always go down well if you propose a plan so that the cost does not come out of public/church funds - the most frequent stumbling block being financial. I succeeded three years ago in getting eight new names added to our memorial although I had a head start by being on the council. However, I still had to go through the process. With local memorials, the majority of missing names were left off due to oversight or their names not being put forward by relatives through ignorance of the process. However, a few were held back, as said above, due to the relatives' wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 24 August , 2004 Share Posted 24 August , 2004 Welcome Dinamo. I can only agree with Terry's comment regarding seeking out the present owner's policy, if this can be established. I personally believe we should not be re-writing history by adding names 90 years after the start of the great conflict UNLESS is can be confirmed that a genuine mistake or oversight was made when the criteria used at the time by the relevant War Memorial Committee is considered. What is the exact text on the memorial ? This will give us a clue to the original criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 As Ian indicates, there may well have been family reasons why he wasnt included at the time. As one of the members of this Forum who research local memorials, I have come across names of men who havnt been included. There are three who I reckon have good connections with the area and, perhaps, could have been included. However, I take the decision not to pursue these cases as my own views might be different from the families. The "problem" is no doubt compounded, the larger the memorial already is. I've identified 496 men with a connection to Bridlington in East Yorkshire having died in the War, but only 316 of them are on the town's memorial. Of the remaining 180, twelve were definitely known of at the time, as they were included as having died in an earlier newspaper reports or Rolls of Honour, while using SDitGW shows there were - with a few "overlaps" - 17 resident in the town, 54 born there, and 77 enlisted (mostly with no resident/birth details). Clearly one can explain certain omissions where men had long since moved away from the area, but it seems likely that there are a few who may not have been included if their n-o-k objected. By the same token, there are sixteen names on this particular memorial that have thus far defied matching with CWGC or SDitGW records, while a fair few others have names mis-spelt, incorrect units, etc. Overall, I think it's dangerous to regard existing memorials as anything other than the rough building blocks of any research project one may choose to conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fuller Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 Hi Dinamo Welcome to the forum My relative (see signature) lived in Heath & Reach Beds before and during WW1 but is on the Kettering memorial. There are several reasons this happened, but your relative may be on another memorial perhaps? If you havent already, look at Roll-of-honour.com for a mention of him. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRICOURT Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 I managed to get 35 names added to my local War Memorial in Cleckheaton (West Yorks) after years of research. Once I was certain they had been genuinely missed off the original 474 dead I approached the RBL and obtained their backing. We then approached the Forget Me Not Fund (still in being after being set up in 1915 to send parcels to local troops) who agreed the finance and finally the Local Authority for permission. Everything went very smoothly and on 1 July 2000 we had a lovely ceremony attended by civic dignitaries, the local MP, RBL members and most importantly several families of those whose names were being added, at which plaques bearing the additional names were unveiled. However after almost 20 years of searching there are still 2 names I have been unable to positively identify E GOULD & C (A) SPEIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 There are two issues here and it seems you are damned if you do or dont. Should memorials be left as they were when erected or should new names be added at a later date. As historical time pieces then they should remain as they are, they are a snapshot of those who wanted their loved ones remembered. In Ingatestone, Essex they are to erect a memorial, only 90 + years too late! so the names are being gathered. I have been asking for names to be updated, not added as it is known that they are not spelt correctly. There are those who have been left off, so they appear on our virtual memorial and it is here that we get most of our hits. It is also true that if we are wrong we can change it immediately! and also add when new information comes to hand. It is not an easy question to answer, I would like to see those left off put on, but whose decision is it? Is it us the people who live in the area, or the families themselves who should have the last word? Back in the 1920s this was down to the families. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 25 August , 2004 Share Posted 25 August , 2004 It will be interesting to know the memorial's exact text when Dinamo posts it. I provide the relevant section of text from a number of local memorials in Aberdeenshire by way of example. " those who went from this parish " " the men from Gartly " " the men of Aboyne and Glen Tanar " " men of Huntly " " the men of Inverurie and district " " these members of this parish " " the men from this town " " the men of this parish " " men connected with this parish " " the men from the parishes of Rhynie & Kearn " The first and last are quite specific. One states " those who went from this parish ". Regardless of any links anyone could provide connecting men to the first parish, they should not be there unless they " went from this parish ". The people best placed to make the decisions were those local people who raised the memorial in memory of their friends, in conjunction with the families, usually circa 1919-1925. A new memorial being raised today, as quoted at Ingatestone, would be an entirely different matter. Does anyone know the criteria being used there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Men went from the parish... of course they did, but were they born there? lived there and not born there? born there and lived there? A sticky issue... In the case of Ingatestone the criteria is as laid out above... I am waiting to find out if Archibald Browne who was shot in Dec 1914 is to be included. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 John What is the text / criteria to be at Ingatestone ? It is not in a post as far as I can see.. Obviously " connected with this parish " gives wider scope than something specific like " those who left ". From research of the " went from this parish " case it seems it mattered not where they were born. I am aware of men born there, but moved on, who are not named on the memorial. You wrote " In Ingatestone, Essex they are to erect a memorial, only 90 + years too late! so the names are being gathered. " I took it that no memorial currently existed. A search of the forum reveals there is a memorial there currently. You wrote in in March ---- " Ingatestone has a really poor War memorial (i put this in a thread a while ago), and a list has been made up of war dead and there is going to be a new memorial built.... " Can you clear up the confusion created? If the memorial is being replaced, surely the existing text and names will be transferred. An additional inscription on a seperate face / plaque could list others, if fitting, making clear why they were added and the date. The two lists should be seperate, in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 Jas The war memorial is a crufied Christ in a small space outside one of the churches. The list of those who fell is contained within two churches in the village, as rolls of honour, Ingatestone and Fryerning In researching Archibald Browne I came into contact with a member of the local historical society who was submitting a list of those who fell to another person who was then in turn submitting it to the WFA. Ingatestone was to create a new memorial with all those who fell on it and replace the older small one that had no list at all. It is felt that the memorial will be erected in the church grounds and this would be a good postion, but I wait to see what happens. This process was begun in March 2004 and to date there is no further info as the person compiling the list has stated that my contacts list is short of people. To whit those born in the village and at the time of the Great War had moved on to other areas. In all it was reckoned that there were upwards of 30 missing when this criteria was applied. Hence you can see why I was saying that if they went from the parish, did it mean they were born and lived, just lived, or born and moved away. If you go to www.stock.org.uk and go to war memorials and then ingatestone and fryerning you can see the list which is quite large, and ours is short! SDGW will show that there are those born in the village who had moved away. I have passed my lists on to the historical society and sometime I hope they sort out the definitive list. Hope that helps John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 John Thanks for the details, clearly a bit of a dilemma. From a historical aspect there has to be a link between those named on the Roll of Honour and the new memorial. Some Rolls inlcude those who gave their lives, others identify both fallen and survivors. This assumes that this roll does not refer to Church members only. Although usual at the time not all casualties were adherents. Again, the text of the Roll usually clarifies things. Locally to ADD a name to an existing memorial in the legal " charge " of Aberdeenshire Council the following is the local criteria. It is used in addition to the criteria of the Scottish National War Memorial. " Individuals shall have been born or have lived the majority of their life in the parish in which the War Memorial is located or in the event of there not being a War Memorial in that parish the nearest War Memorial and no other. Validation of residency will be from the appropriate Community Council. " It might be worth seeking advice from Friends of War Memorials or the War Memorials section at The Imperial War Museum. ( contact me off Forum for contact details ) Ultimately the owner of the new memorial can do as they wish if it sits on their land (Scots Law), I suspect the Church will have to be involved if sited as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 26 August , 2004 Share Posted 26 August , 2004 http://www.stock.org.uk/history/ww1/fryerning/index.htm That shows the Fryerning Roll of honour and the full list that I have so far.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 30 August , 2004 Share Posted 30 August , 2004 I have a great uncle who was killed in WW1. He is not on his village memorial-Whittington, Staffs. Is there any way this can be rectified? After all the why's and wherefore's, write a leter to the Parish Council and ask them to put it on. Thats what I did this year when I asked them to add a further six names, this they did, despite the fact all the names were in alphabetical order which neccesitated having to do the whole lot over again. regards Cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Cliff You have a good Parish Coucil, I asked mine and they wont budge... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinamo Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 Thank you to all who gave me advice on getting information re the war memorial in Whittington, Staffs. The parish is responsible for the memorial cleaning, but they are finding out whose job it is to make changes. The inscription reads:"Erected to the memory of the old scholars of Whittington school who fell during the great war 1914-1918. Their name liveth for evermore." Now my task is to find the old school records to establish that my great uncle, Charles Percy Smith attended the school. Diane Milton Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 The text left by those who erected the memorial, as is usually the case, provides the answer as to who should be there. If he was a fallen ex scholar, he should be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 16 September , 2004 Share Posted 16 September , 2004 Just this week the local Free Paper carried the story of Stanley Butwright,whose name had been wrongly spelt on the Guyhirn Village War Memorial for over 80 Years,the "W" being omitted,@ long last after a Struggle of over many years to convince the necessary powers that be,by his descendants & local RBL, an addendum has been added to the shoulder of the Memorial,stating that Private Stanley Butwright is remembered on this Memorial as Stanley Butright, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 Quite an inspiration reading this thread. I had a great uncle listed on his school memorial, but not the town memorial. I may now chase this up further. I dont know if his mother didnt ant it on there, or if he was declined to be added as he was KIA in an accident overseas, not in a battle. I always thought that it wasent quite right....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 Captain Dave Diffcult to know since you give no details of time of accident. It might be that he qualified to be one memorial but not the other. If killed in an accident, and not on " war service " that might explain things. I know of a man killed with BAOR in 1947. Although the offer was made, his father specifically did not want his name added to the war memorial which bears the dates 1939 - 1945. Tell us more of your great uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 17 September , 2004 Share Posted 17 September , 2004 I have a Parish Council Meeting on Monday, and am going to print this off to show them what CAN be done.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gordon Posted 18 September , 2004 Share Posted 18 September , 2004 Dinamo All the advice offered in the preceding postings is excellent but one organisation which I don't think has been mentioned is the Briitish Legion. I was very succesful in applying to them to have some errors rectified on the War Memorial which is all that is left of an abandoned mining village in Fife. Regards Jim Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 18 September , 2004 Share Posted 18 September , 2004 Whilst they may be able to offer basic assistance, I am aware that The Royal British Legion (Scotland ) have no legal authority over adding names to most memorials in Scotland. They are generally in the legal " care " of the various local authorities, and their Policy on such matters will apply, or they are owned in law by the owner of the land or building they are sited on. The owner would then have the right to decide matters. As for England, I suspect someting similar will be the case, with many of them owned by the Church of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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