45th Brigade Royal Field Artillery

[Chris Talbot]

Dear All

I am researching George Forrest 45755 who served from 1914 to 1917 with the 45 Brigade Royal Field Artiller, untill he was wounded after serving 3years 3 months and 3 days or thats what family tradition holds to be true.

Acording to his medal index card he was a cpl

Has anybody have any details as to the movement etc of the above Brigade during 1914-17 and althugh a doubt it any details of George himself.

Yours Chris Talbot

[rflory]

Chris: 45th Brigade, RFA served with the 8th Division. It was at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915, at Aubers Ridge and Festubert in May 1915; Loos in Sep 1915; Arras from April -May 1917; the German Offensive, March 1918 and the Battle of Aisne in May 1918. 5th Battery of the Brigade was awarded the French Croix de Guerre for its defense of its battery position on 27 May 1918, but Cpl Forrest does not appear on the nominal roll of 5th Battery for that action. Regards. Dick Flory

[SFayers]

Chris,

Have a look at the 8th Division page on The Long, Long Trail website:

The Long, Long Trail - 8th Division

The 8th Division was also involved in the opening phase of the Battle of the Somme, where my g g uncle died whilst serving in the 45th brigade.

cheers

Steve

[Pmwilling]

My Great Uncle 1422 Acting Corporal Joseph Small was a shoeing smith with the 5th Battery RFA which was part of the 45th Brigade. He went out to France on 29th February 1915 and received shrapnel wounds at sometime during the Summer offensive of 1916. He was awarded the Silver War Badge, discharged on 10th July 1916 and awarded a pension on 13th July 1916. Sadly he died in 1933 and I can find no trace of his army record.

I have read the relevant war diary which mentions the number of wounded being sent to hospital. Is there any way of finding out which hospital this would have been? Ideally I would like to locate hospital records and find out what treatment he received and the route he followed back to England.

Many thanks

[SFayers]

My Great Uncle 1422 Acting Corporal Joseph Small was a shoeing smith with the 5th Battery RFA which was part of the 45th Brigade. He went out to France on 29th February 1915 and received shrapnel wounds at sometime during the Summer offensive of 1916. He was awarded the Silver War Badge, discharged on 10th July 1916 and awarded a pension on 13th July 1916. Sadly he died in 1933 and I can find no trace of his army record.

I have read the relevant war diary which mentions the number of wounded being sent to hospital. Is there any way of finding out which hospital this would have been? Ideally I would like to locate hospital records and find out what treatment he received and the route he followed back to England.

Many thanks

As you've probably gathered from the 45 Brigade RFA war diary (I'm assuming that's the diary you're refering to?) from ~mid-June 1916 the component batteries of 45 Brigade had moved into their positions in readiness for the opening bombardment in the lead up to the start of the Battle of the Somme. From the war diary of the Commander of Royal Artillery 8th Division, the batteries of the brigade were then located in the north of 8th Division's sector (5th Battery gun lines being the northern-most, situated immediately south of Authuille on the Authuille - Aveluy road).

From what I've ascertained, casualties (at least from the 5th Battery gun lines) would have most likely been evacuated via an advanced dressing station of 90th Field Ambulance (32nd Division) which was located a stones-throw away at Blackhorse Bridge, and then gone back via the 90th FA main dressing station at Bouzincourt. Certainly the 90th FA MDS at Bouzincourt is where my gg uncle ended up on 27th June, where sadly he died of his wounds (his chums from 5th Battery who were killed in action that day were also taken back and buried there). I'm sure other routes of evacuation would also have been used by 45 Brigade depending on which medical units were most readily accessable with regard to where (geographically speaking!) a man was wounded.

all the best

Steve

[SFayers]

Just a thought though, if Joseph was discharged on the 10th July - is it not likely he was wounded a lot earlier? I really don't know what the normal 'turnaround' would be from someone being wounded to finally being discharged; hopefully other forum members may have some thoughts on the matter.......

[Pmwilling]

Just a thought though, if Joseph was discharged on the 10th July - is it not likely he was wounded a lot earlier? I really don't know what the normal 'turnaround' would be from someone being wounded to finally being discharged; hopefully other forum members may have some thoughts on the matter.......

Yes, that's a good point. Incidentally have you ever looked at WO95/2386, the war diary for 90th Field Ambulance from 1915 Nov. - 1919 May? I'm wondering what kind of information that may contain. I know that many of the war diaries only contain names of officers and they would have been dealing with so many casualties I suppose it would be impossible to identify an individual being passed through the system.

[SFayers]

I have 90th FA diary for June 1916. It gives the numbers of casualties admitted to and passed through the MDS at Bouzincourt - but sadly it does not give the names (the only names given are of those who were then serving with the field ambulance). To my knowledge no casualty admissions lists exist for 90th FA.

Incidentally, before 5th Battery's move to near Authuille around 13th / 14th June the battery seems to have been located nearer and to the east of Aveluey (certainly during May and early June anyway). Whilst located here it's probably more likely any casualties would have been dealt with by one of the 8th Division Field Ambulances. I only have 45 Brigade's and the 8th Division Commander Royal Artillery's war diary for May and June 1916, so I couldn't say exactly where the brigade and 5th Battery were located before then.

Certainly during the Battle of Loos in September 1915 8th Division was involved in a subsidiary attack further north at Bois Grenier; and before then the division was at the Battles of Neuve Chapelle in March 1915, and Aubers Ridge and Festubert in May 1915. If memory serves (it doesn't always!) the division moved south to the Somme area around April 1916 (I'll need to check the divisional history again to be certain!).

There is another approach to finding out the time period (or thereabouts) when your great uncle was wounded by searching The Times archive - he should appear at some point in the casualty lists for wounded men. (I think you now have to subscribe to The Times to be able to do this online?) My gg uncle who died of wounds on 27th June 1916 and his 5th Battery comarades who died the same day day are all mentioned in The Times casualty list for 22nd July 1916; so using this as an example, if your chap was to appear in a casualty list for say late October / November 1915 there's a good chance he would have been wounded during the attack Bois Grenier in September 1915.

All the best

Steve

[SFayers]

Bingo! Here's an extract from The Times casualty list of wounded published 16th June 1915. It seems Joseph was serving with 5th Stafford Battery (Territorial Force) Royal Field Artillery - this was a different unit to 5th Battery in 45 Brigade RFA, the latter being a battery of the regular army.

I don't know which division and RFA Brigade 5th Stafford Battery was part of (presumably one of the territorial divisions); but from the date of the casualty list I would guess Joseph was probably wounded sometime during May 1915?

All the best

Steve

Edit: From looking at The Long Long Trail website, I would suggest Joseph's battery may well have been part of 232nd Brigade RFA (TF), which was part of 46th (North Midland) Division. According to the website this 1st Line Territorial Force RFA Brigade included batteries from Wolverhampton, West Bromwich and Stafford. 46th Division landed in France towards the end of February 1915; which ties in quite nicely with your theatre entry date for Joseph of 29th February.

[SFayers]

Having checked Gunner 1338 George Cox's medal index card (the other chap mentioned in the casualty list alongside Joseph), he also has a 1917 territorial Force number of 810909 - which is within the number block allotted to 232nd Brigade (formerly III North Midland Brigade) RFA (TF); so I'd say 5th Stafford Battery was almost certainly in this brigade.

If you're able to get to the National Archive (or can hire a researcher to go for you), the following war diaries may be of use for the time period you're interested in (~January - June 1915):

Comander Royal Artillery 46th Division February - June 1915 (WO 95/2667)

232 Brigade Royal Field Artillery January 1915 - February 1917 (WO 95/2674)

Assuming Joseph was tended to by one of the 46th Division field ambulances, any the following may also be of interest:

1/1 and 1/2 North Midland Field Ambulance March 1915 - May 1919 (WO 95/2680)

1/3 North Midland Field Ambulance March 1915 - May 1919 (WO 95/2681)

Hope that's of some help.

All the best

Steve

[SFayers]

Incidentally, George Cox's pension documents survive and are available on Ancestry; and his papers confirm III North Midland Brigade (i.e. 232nd Brigade) RFA (TF). Looks like he received a shell wound at Ypres on 16th May 1915 - perhaps Joseph was wounded in the same incident? George was back in the UK on the 19th May, and then served at home until his discharge in May 1918.

[Pmwilling]

Bingo! Here's an extract from The Times casualty list of wounded published 16th June 1915. It seems Joseph was serving with 5th Stafford Battery (Territorial Force) Royal Field Artillery - this was a different unit to 5th Battery in 45 Brigade RFA, the latter being a battery of the regular army.

I don't know which division and RFA Brigade 5th Stafford Battery was part of (presumably one of the territorial divisions); but from the date of the casualty list I would guess Joseph was probably wounded sometime during May 1915?

All the best

Steve

Edit: From looking at The Long Long Trail website, I would suggest Joseph's battery may well have been part of 232nd Brigade RFA (TF), which was part of 46th (North Midland) Division. According to the website this 1st Line Territorial Force RFA Brigade included batteries from Wolverhampton, West Bromwich and Stafford. 46th Division landed in France towards the end of February 1915; which ties in quite nicely with your theatre entry date for Joseph of 29th February.

Thank you so much for the information. Yes, that is undoubtedly my great uncle, he was born in Stafford. Thanks also for the National Archives references. I am going down to Kew later this year and will definitely check them out.

Thanks again for all your help

Pam

[SFayers]

Glad to help Pam,

Best of luck with your search!

All the best

Steve

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Pam

Just a quick post to confirm that 5th Staffs Battery RFA (TF) was indeed in III North Midland Brigade RFA, in 46th (North Midland Division. The brigade was numbered 232 in May 1916 and the battery became B Battery (this was part of a general "re-labelling" of RFA TF units at that time). The brigade left 46th Div in January 1917 to become an Army Field Artillery Brigade - part of a general pool of artillery and again as part of a wider reorganisation.

If you can get to the National Archives at Kew, the Brigade's War Diary is in these files:

WO 95/2674 232 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1915 Jan. - 1917 Feb.

WO 95/456 232 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 Mar. - 1919 Apr.

War Diaries rarely mention men by name otrher than officers, but the location of the unit, and a brief description of its activities, is given for each day. Batteries RFA did not keep separate diaries.

Good hunting!

Ron

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Chris

The War Diary of 45 Bde RFA is in this file:

WO 95/1694 45 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1914 Oct. - 1919 Apr.

See my post immediately above for comments on what War Diaries normally contain.

Ron

[Pmwilling]

Hello Pam

Just a quick post to confirm that 5th Staffs Battery RFA (TF) was indeed in III North Midland Brigade RFA, in 46th (North Midland Division. The brigade was numbered 232 in May 1916 and the battery became B Battery (this was part of a general "re-labelling" of RFA TF units at that time). The brigade left 46th Div in January 1917 to become an Army Field Artillery Brigade - part of a general pool of artillery and again as part of a wider reorganisation.

If you can get to the National Archives at Kew, the Brigade's War Diary is in these files:

WO 95/2674 232 Brigade Royal Field Artillery 1915 Jan. - 1917 Feb.

WO 95/456 232 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 Mar. - 1919 Apr.

War Diaries rarely mention men by name otrher than officers, but the location of the unit, and a brief description of its activities, is given for each day. Batteries RFA did not keep separate diaries.

Good hunting!

Ron

Thanks Ron

I can't wait to get to Kew and follow up all these leads

Pam

[Guest Colin Booth]

Hi I'm also looking into my G/Father Jacob Booth 29107 who was a Gunner / Driver in 45 Brigade 3rd Battery.

Family stories about him are that he was a Stretcher Bearer which might tie in with your research any info on this ???

Sadly he died in 1919 of Spanish Flu Pandemic he is at Halle Comunial Cemetery A- 80 I'm going there this Wednesday.... I will be the first of my family to visit his grave...

If anyone has come accross him or his unit or info on Stretcher Bearers I would greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks,

Colin..

[battiscombe]

For those with relatives who may have served with 5th Battery, 45th Brigade you may encounter a booklet ('Young Contemptible') privately published by one of its original officers, a freshly commissioned John Wedderburn-Maxwell, who joined it 12/8/1914 when it was being reformed in Leeds in Aug 1914 - having had most men posted elsewhere to other Brigades. he has a few anecdotes of their rebuilding Aug-Nov 1914 before going to France.

It has an interesting pair of senior NCOs.. brothers , both having left the army a few years earlier

BSM Frank Edward Talbot – [78968] who reenlisted 14/8/1914 and was made BSM the next day.. and remained with them until June 1916 when wounded

and

BQMS Frederick Charles Talbot [79023] who reenlisted Leeds 24/8/1914 and was 'claimed' by his brother to serve in the same unit and was made BQMS in September 1914 .. remaining with them until May 1916, apart from a brief spell with 8th DAC as a BSM, before returning to 5th Bty at his own request

[SFayers]

Hi battiscombe,

Thanks for posting that. Yes, BSM Frank Talbot was one of six wounded (and another killed, Gunner 103903 James John Cruickshank Henderson) on the 25th June 1916 at the battery gun lines south of Authuille on the Authuille - Aveluy road.

Can I ask if the booklet gives any further details as to the 'doings' of 5th Battery at the end of June? The 45th Brigade and CRA 8th Division war diaries together are pretty informative as far as such documents go, but another personal perspective as to events at the time would be very interesting to hear.

All the best

Steve

[battiscombe]

Thats interesting that Talbot was wounded then. No mention of that action i am afraid, by then W-M was battery captain I think ..... he mentions their positions when they moved to Avelu spring 1916.. with gun positions selected by the colonel Rufus Hill.. which then left them 'unable to hit anything nearer than the 3rd or 4th line of german trenches..'.. but notes the bombardment for 1st july started on 24th june... but laments they missed a chance [suggested by him] to run a gun up to support the attack on the Leipzig redoubt from 1000 yds over open sights .... which he thought might have allowed its capture by 8th Div at the start of the offensive..

[SFayers]

Many thanks for checking. From the 45th Brigade war diary the 25th and 27th June were pretty significant in terms of casualties suffered at the gun lines of 5th Battery: 6 wounded, 1 killed on 25th June (Lt. Ross being lightly wounded but remaining at duty), and 4 being killed and 4 wounded (including my gg uncle who was mortally wounded) on the 27th June. In both cases the casualties were as a result of shelling of the battery position.

All the best

Steve

[stuart128]

Any information about 57 (howitzer) battery 45 Brigade, especially in May 1918 Third Battle of the Aisne.

I have downloaded the 45 Brigade war diary for those dates, my ancestor William Lawrenson Fairclough was (luckily) taken prisoner on the first day after surviving shelling, gas attack and hand to hand fighting.

Stuart Reynolds

[Guest FredP]

Dear All.

I am researching a relative his name was 94230 Gunner John Samuel Giles killed in action 2nd Aug 1917 age 26. He is buried in Belgian Battery Cemetery Ypres. He served in 3rd Bty 45th Brigade. I have looked at the War diary for 45th but unfortunately

August 1917 seems to be missing from the file. I have looked at the usual places in Ancestry.com and Find my Past but can find nothing other than his medal card and his entry in Soldiers who Died in Great War. I would like to know when he enlisted has anyone any suggestions

[battiscombe]

with that number the chances are he enlisted early --- there may well be 100-200 men in 45th Bde with numbers in the 80000-90000 range who were early wartime recruits [many more being reservists of one form or another which does not fit with his age+number]- late August 1914.. if his records do not survive those of a man with a similar number may - providing an idea of enlistment date.. enlisted at Worcester

for example 92434 enlisted 28 Aug 1914 [Giles was 92430 I believe , not 94230?] others enlisting going to 58, 59, 60 and 61 Bdes

Sept 3rd '20 recruits leave Leeds for Sheffield, 10 to 3rd Bty and 10 for 1st Bty..' and similar entire in the war diary of 45th Bde

[BJAdamson]

My Grandpa was a driver with 45 Bde RFA, service number 55662 - which makes him a pre-Great War recruit perhaps?

I have his "Pip, Squeak & Wilfred" and his Mons Star is a 1914 with no clasp or rose, which suggests he was not under fire during that time.

I have an photo of him serving in India, so I'm told, but not sure if that was prior or after WWI.

The family seemed to believe his younger brother Andrew had also served in the RFA, but research suggests the A Adamson on the Menin Gate is not him, so I'm going with him being with a Cable Section of the Royal Engineers instead.

 

Any light shed on Driver James Adamson's whereabouts would be gratefully received!