Hooked Quillion still in service use in 1920 ?

[trajan]

Likewise with bayonets that are without the clearance hole (NCH) they are less common but not at all rare, especially when you consider that all the earlier Lithgow bayonets were never made with the hole.

My observation is that the early wartime dated P1907's without the clearance hole are the hardest to find of all the British bayonets, the '13 and '14 dates are especially scarce for the above stated reasons.

Thanks for that observation SS! We "Start off young and end up learning" as we go along, eh? And its nice to learn that these two are a little bit more unusual than I first thought! The Sanderson (left) is 04/14, the Wilkinson (right) is 02/15, and neither have re-issue marks.

PS: Yes, I know, they are not HQ's, but this seemed the best place to coment on SS's earlier post

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Reference to my post # 50, attached is another of the photographs taken by the same photographer and dated the previous day, April 8 1920 which shows the same or another stripped down British Army Model T Ford armed with a Lewis Gun as shown in my opening post.

LF

Photo c/o the Library of Congress.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not that any further evidence is needed to confirm my original photo, although corroborating documentary evidence is always the cream on the cake.

Another Forum member kindly posted an album of photographs, which contains numerous photographs taken in Jerusalem during the April 1920 riots, one of those photographs in the album ( see attached photo ) is the same photograph shown in my opening post, which has the notation to the photograph " Machine Guns posted at the Jaffa Gate April 4 - 13, 1920 ", again confirming that the photograph was taken in April 1920 during the Jerusalem riots, and not in December 1917 as had been erroneously suggested in post # 22.

The importance of this photograph, is it confirming that the British Army still had Pattern 1907 bayonets with the hooked quillion still attached, in service as late as April 1920.

LF

[Andrew Upton]

Since starting this Thread, new information has come to light confirming the date of the photograph I originally posted as being 9th April 1920.

The original photograph showing British troops in Jerusalem sitting in a Model T Ford armed with a Lewis machine gun, was extremely important as it also showed one of the British soldiers carrying a Pattern 1907 bayonet with the hooked quillion still intact, well after the date when most of the hooked quillions had long since been removed.

Fortunately, the photographer who took the photographs was a professional and he dated his photographs, and in the case of the photo I originally posted, he clearly dated the photograph as 9 April 1920.

The photographer took several photographs over the course of April 8 and 9, 1920 whilst he was documenting the 1920 Jerusalem riots.

Fortunately, because of his keeping excellent date records, we can confirm that the Pattern 1907 bayonet with the hooked quillion intact, was still in service with the British Army as late as 9th April 1920.

Attached is the original photograph, clearly dated by the photographer as 9 April, 1920.

Reference to my post # 50, attached is another of the photographs taken by the same photographer and dated the previous day, April 8 1920 which shows the same or another stripped down British Army Model T Ford armed with a Lewis Gun as shown in my opening post.

Both those pictures there have been reversed (though the one in the album is the correct way round) - they should look like:

http://postimg.org/image/8iif9y72p/

http://postimg.org/image/ofmphmqe1/

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Both those pictures there have been reversed (though the one in the album is the correct way round) - they should look like:

http://postimg.org/image/8iif9y72p/

http://postimg.org/image/ofmphmqe1/

Andrew,

Agreed, I deliberately posted them that way round so as to make the photographer's April 1920 date easily readable, otherwise the date would have been the wrong way round, it was either or.

In my opening post # 1, I have the photo with the hooked quillion bayonet, the right way round.

Anyway, many thanks for pointing it out.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

This photograph from: http://parallaxscuri...or#.VKvxodKUeo4 and reproduced here for reference purposes is supposedly dated 1939 (according to that site) and shows a HQ in a naval armoury with its HQ intact!

Trajan

PS: cross-referencing this from: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222897&p=2209351 post 17 so that it doesn't get missed by the HQ fanatics!

[trajan]

In fact looking at the photograph more closely, it might just be that there are two HQ there - look at the bayonet on the right: there looks to be a hook on that one as well - or is it wishful thinking?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In fact looking at the photograph more closely, it might just be that there are two HQ there - look at the bayonet on the right: there looks to be a hook on that one as well - or is it wishful thinking?

Trajan,

What an excellent photograph, which comes from the Australian War Memorial Photo Archive and is dated circa 1939. This photo shows Australian sailors aboard the Auxiliary Minesweeper ' HMAS Goorangi ' replacing .303 rifle used to fire at mines for detonation, back into the ship's rifle rack.

Also on the rifle racks, can be seen 2 Pattern 1907 Bayonets still with their hooked quillons still attached.

So again, photographic evidence of the hooked quillon bayonets still in use after the end of WW1, this time not 1920, but even later, 1939.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

What an excellent photograph, which comes from the Australian War Memorial Photo Archive and is dated circa 1939. ...

Also on the rifle racks, can be seen 2 Pattern 1907 Bayonets still with their hooked quillons still attached.

So again, photographic evidence of the hooked quillon bayonets still in use after the end of WW1, this time not 1920, but even later, 1939.

Thank you for following up on that one LF so confirming that 1939 date! I could see that there was a source in the left bottom corner but couldn't read it... As you may have guessed, I found this during a few minutes of 'displacement behaviour' while struggling with an obscure text in a very cold library - I just googled 'sailors with P.1907 bayonets' in the hope of following up on the 'N' marked bayonet topic hoping for imagery of WW1 sailors using these or, at the very least, sailors with hook-less P. 1907's (there were a few of the latter!), and then this popped up! I am still somewhat astounded, though, they were in use unaltered that late - perhaps this explains why there is a SOS mark on some of them, that they were in service unaltered as late as the WW2 period or later, when the pig-sticker and its post-war bladed versions began to be used, and so were only then SOS?

[303man]

I expect the soldier retained it and guarded it with his life to remain "ALLY" as they say nowadays soldiers always try and beat the system and wear old kit, in the 80's it was OG trousers and shirt rather than lightweight Trousers and KF Shirt, soldiers hanging onto brownings when Sigs pistols are available and so on, Now it is probably no different to then.

[trajan]

I post here for reference purposes a bayonet illustrated elsewhere on an auction site, for which reason I give no link (I have no connection to the seller)... So this Australian hookie has Slazenger grips... And these Slazenger grips are dated (19)45 and (19)46... It is of course possible that the grips have been put on very recently, but we will never know... My own feeling about that? Unlikely... Re-gripped during re-furbishing... So, a 1907 HQ that somehow survived de-hooking, and was still around in 1945 with hook to be re-gripped?

[JMB1943]

The original photo (thread #1) clearly shows an empty scabbard that appears to be attached to the HQ scabbard near the upper end.

Entrenching tool, maybe, or.....?

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

The original photo (thread #1) clearly shows an empty scabbard that appears to be attached to the HQ scabbard near the upper end.

Entrenching tool, maybe, or.....?

Regards,

JMB

It looks to me like the actual helve, the handle for the entrenching tool, in its carrier.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The original photo (thread #1) clearly shows an empty scabbard that appears to be attached to the HQ scabbard near the upper end.

Entrenching tool, maybe, or.....?

JMB,

As Trajan has said, what you are seeing is the ' Helve ' or wooden handle of the Entrenching Tool properly attached to the scabbard of the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet with Hooked Quillon.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

Just to note that over on GBF, one member there has posted a de-hooked Sanderson P.1907 with the SOS on the pommel, dated 12/09 with Victoria markings and also a '12/45 R' refurbishing mark. See: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?422198-Australian-P07

Given how HQ's were in use by the Australian navy into WW2 I could not help but wonder if that was when the thing was de-hooked?

Also, it looks to be as if there was a major number of these Sanderson ones went that away - not my field, I admit, but I have this vague recollection that there are a fair few Sanderson-made HQ P.1907's with Australian markings - happy to be corrected by SS on that if necessary if he reads this!

Trajan