Hooked Quillion still in service use in 1920 ?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I have not seen this photograph before, it is captioned :-

" British troops at the Jaffa Gate, Jerusalem circa 1920 "

One of the soldiers is clearly carrying a Hooked Quillion Bayonet, could these HQ bayonets have still been in service use as late as 1920, long after the hooked quillions were required to be removed, or is this just another incorrect caption ?

Does anyone know which regiment these men are from ? and were they serving in Palestine in 1920 ?

LF

[Sepoy]

The chap driving appears to be wearing a cap badge of Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment)(Green Howards).

L/Dfdr

[TonyE]

I don't know when the first Lewis guns reached the Middle East but I suspect that the earliest that picture could have been taken is late war, so long after the order was issued to remove quillions.

Regards

TonyE

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

I am sure the Lewis was used in 1916 for a short time then Replaced by the Hotchkiss for Mounted troops.

I have seen Hooked Quillion Bayonets being used in 1918 in other photographs in palestine must have been plenty of old stocks from Eqypt and in stocks.

Saying that about the Lewis I have seen film of it being Used in 1918 in Palestine, so 1920 would not be out of the ordinary..

Regards Jonathan.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Heres the bigger pic

http://abujomaa.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/british-soldiers-with-lewis-machine-guns-posted-at-jaffa-gate-jerusalem-palestine-circa-19201.jpg

[Lancashire Fusilier]

My thanks to Sepoy, TonyE and Jonathan for the information. Also, to auchonvillerssomme for the great photograph.

All confirming that the Hooked Quillion bayonet was in service use long after the requirement to remove the hooked quillion was issued, and as late as 1920.

Regards,

LF

[dickiek]

Have a look at the film Dunkirk.....John Miles is wearing a hook Quillion when he jumps out of the back of the truck.....

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Have a look at the film Dunkirk.....John Miles is wearing a hook Quillion when he jumps out of the back of the truck.....

Probably what they call ' theatrical licence '.

Regards,

LF

[dickiek]

It could be, however in the next shot, he's wearing a standard 07 bayonet.......I think they found out he was wearing the wrong pattern and had the hook cut off.........

[Lancashire Fusilier]

It could be, however in the next shot, he's wearing a standard 07 bayonet.......I think they found out he was wearing the wrong pattern and had the hook cut off.........

Next time there is a re-run of the ' Dunkirk ' film, I shall look for the bayonet sequence.

Regards,

LF

[4thGordons]

I have been following this thread and wondered about the specific order regarding quillon removal.

When I retreive my copy (from a friend) of Skennerton and Richardson I will check but did the order (or LoC) indicate all bayonets would be turned in and modified ASAP or were the modifications to be done as and when the bayonets entered refurbishment or maintenance/repair/reissue programmes?

What I am getting at is if it is the latter, that modifiction was to take place as and when bayonets entered the routine maintenance/reissue program, then it does not seem particularly mysterious that numbers bayonets with quillons survived in service long past the date of the change order. Conversely if the order was all bayonets to be returned forthwith for removal of quillon and drilling of clearance hole then the picture is of more interest.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I have been following this thread and wondered about the specific order regarding quillon removal.

When I retreive my copy (from a friend) of Skennerton and Richardson I will check but did the order (or LoC) indicate all bayonets would be turned in and modified ASAP or were the modifications to be done as and when the bayonets entered refurbishment or maintenance/repair/reissue programmes?

Chris

Hi Chris,

I checked my copy of Skennerton/Richardson's British and CW bayonets, page 187, which refers to the removal of the hooked quillion being approved on 29 Oct 1913, and List of Changes No.16755 of 29 Oct 1913 refers to the new 1907 Sword Bayonet being produced without the hooked quillion.

Which seems to impy that it was a two-fold LOC, firstly remove the hooked quillion from existing HQ 1907 bayonets, and start producing a new 1907 made without the hooked quillion.

As to the instructions of exactly when the hooked qullions were to be removed, the book does not say. I assume it was to be done as soon as possible after the LOC was issued on 29 Oct 1913, so to see an intact 1907 HQ bayonet still in service use as late as 1920, 7 years after the order to remove the hooked quillion was made, is very unusual, the posted photograph being the only one I have seen with such a late dated HQ use.

Regards,

LF

[4thGordons]

Thanks for the lookup

About this "I assume it was to be done as soon as possible after the LOC"

I think if accurate even with this assumption the "as possible" gives very considerable lattitude. So while production would switch almost immediately I can quite see the conversion process, particularly if it was handled at unit level (the degree of variation in grinding suggests to me that it was), could be given low priority in some units hence the bayonets surviving unmodified in service for some time. I would agree that the 1920s is stretching it a bit and I don't think I have seen many in service this late either, but it doesn't seem to be too improbable given the location and the apparent absence of a direct order to turn all bayonets in for modification immediately.

Chris

Just a thought -- I wonder if a source of pictures of hooked quillon bayonets in use late might not be pictures of Australian state police forces.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks for the lookup

About this "I assume it was to be done as soon as possible after the LOC"

Chris

Just a thought -- I wonder if a source of pictures of hooked quillon bayonets in use late might not be pictures of Australian state police forces.

Generally speaking, as soon as possible means at the earliest opportunity, which is probably the meaning behind the LOC. So the clear instruction was to remove the hooked quillions ( as soon as possible ) which for some, that would have meant this week, this month, or this year, and I would have expected those in charge of the process to ensure all the HQs were removed asap.

It is likely that the Australian State Police were not subject to the British LOC., and their HQ bayonets were retained much later, particularly for ceremonial use.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Considering it is estimated that some 300,000/400,000 1907 Hooked Quillion bayonets were produced, and when also considering the rarity of those 1907 Hooked Quillion bayonets issued into service use that still exist today with their HQ intact, it shows that the October 1913 LOC requiring the HQs to be removed was comprehensively implemented.

LF

[4thGordons]

Considering it is estimated that some 300,000/400,000 1907 Hooked Quillion bayonets were produced, and when also considering the rarity of those 1907 Hooked Quillion bayonets issued into service use that still exist today with their HQ intact, it shows that the October 1913 LOC requiring the HQs to be removed was comprehensively implemented.

LF

Or perhaps this explained by the fact that these weapons, as the weapons in the hands of units at the outbreak of war, suffered the highest wastage/loss/destruction in the early battles in the war (1914 F&F and 1915 Dardanelles) and are consequently rare today.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Or perhaps this explained by the fact that these weapons, as the weapons in the hands of units at the outbreak of war, suffered the highest wastage/loss/destruction in the early battles in the war (1914 F&F and 1915 Dardanelles) and are consequently rare today.

I agree, the early ' in battle ' losses must have been enormous.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

As with a lot of the printed reference material that we encounter when studying things about the GW, much of it is Rules & Regulations, not all of which was adhered too (closely).

The List of Changes was a reference document for equipment manufacturers, and unit Officers/QMs and Armourers to keep abreast of what the current "standard" was officially.

As changes were notified, these adjustments were incorporated into the manufacture and maintenance of all these items. With items in service usually when in for routine repairs.

In the case of the hooked quillons I have never seen any reference to "an order to remove quillons" as such, however the LOC states the new standard w/o HQ was to be adopted.

So during the war whenever repairs were made to existing equipment I expect each bayonet would have been "upgraded" to the current standard which would mean no HQ required.

Also in force (and perhaps more necessary under trench conditions) was the requirement for clearance holes to be drilled in existing bayonets, to allow debris removal when attaching.

So when this took place I think many quillons would also have been removed. Close to the administration areas actions would have been more likely to occur, less so in remote areas.

To me it is not surprising to see a Hooked Quillon still in service at that time especially in Palestine (it's a long way from home) and I'm not totally sure if it is 1920 as opposed to 1918.?

Surprising as it may be, even today the HQ examples are NOT that rare, there are still quite a lot around. The problem is that everyone wants one so the demand creates the scarcity.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

If evidence is needed to show that the "Rules and Regulations" were not always strictly adhered to in times of war, then see below (accepted INTO service December 1914)

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

HQ examples are NOT that rare, there are still quite a lot around. The problem is that everyone wants one so the demand creates the scarcity.

Cheers, S>S

Shippingsteel,

You are indeed very lucky that where you are in Australia, Hooked Quillion Bayonets are " not that rare, and that there are still quite a lot around ".

Perhaps, you could ship a box load or two back to the old Mother Country, as here in the U.K. we are not as lucky as you are, and for us they are still rare, and command a hefty price when they come up for sale.

Also, their Antipodean rarity must depend on where you are in Australia, as blade dealer ' Anzac Blades ' in Australia, who loves selling ' Hookies ', whenever he is lucky enough to get one, does not have any for sale, and the last one they had for sale sold almost immediately for I think $1600! about a 1000+ pounds.

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

The Price/Value does not equal Rarity. Value is created by the demand versus the current supply. Rarity is about very few numbers that are ever available on the market.

Every show or event that I go to has 'hookies' for sale, usually in average condition and always asking exorbidant prices, but they ARE available and not very hard to find.

Anthony Carter rated the Hooked Quillon P1907 as an R5 on his 'Rarity Scale' which equates to being "Scarce in Good Condition" and I believe that description is correct.

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. I just did a quick search on ebay for HQ's for sale in the UK - took me all of about 10 seconds, and HERE it is listed as Item Number 321002809151 ... not RARE

[shippingsteel]

In regard to the dating of your photo in the OP, I am thinking it's much more likely December 1917, very soon after the capture of Jerusalem (see the pics)

The enlargement of your original photo (that was provided by Auchonvillersomme) shows a number of Indian soldiers wandering around in the background.

In another photo showing a parade at the Jaffa Gate after the capture of Jerusalem, those same Indian soldiers also feature prominantly in the march past.

Cheers, S>S

[Thunderbox]

I love the early version of the WMIK LandRover! Just shows that lessons are never learned between wars....the armed light vehicle has had to be belatedly re-introduced each time we go to a sandy place.

Is that a Model T Ford?

[4thGordons]

Is that a Model T Ford?

I think it is, although I am by no means an expert. I have been looking at them a lot recently because I am working with lots of American Field Service material in which Model Ts figure heavily.

They (Model Ts) are relatively obtainable hereabouts and I keep threatening to sell off my MGB to start a model T fund....this set up looks like it would save a lot on parts (in fact many of the restoration examples look a bit like this already) Plus I would have a reason to get a lewis gun!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

EDIT. I just did a quick search on ebay for HQ's for sale in the UK - took me all of about 10 seconds, and HERE it is listed as Item Number 321002809151 ... not RARE

All you found was but one example on Ebay for the whole of Ebay UK, just listed, has a pitted blade and varnished handle, hardly what I would call plentiful, and hardly a prize example.

I do not think you will convince anyone that Hooked Quillion Bayonets are easy to come by.

Regards,

LF