Admin spof Posted 21 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 21 October , 2012 The 1911 Coronation Roll is at TNA. so unless someone comes along (Brithish Medal Forum?) I can get a copy later this week. I've found the 2nd Bn in an India 1895 roll too. Is it possible he was awarded more than 1 LSGC but only wore the latest one? It would make life a lot easier to trace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2012 The 1911 Coronation Roll is at TNA. so unless someone comes along (Brithish Medal Forum?) I can get a copy later this week. I've found the 2nd Bn in an India 1895 roll too. Is it possible he was awarded more than 1 LSGC but only wore the latest one? It would make life a lot easier to trace him. Many thanks re. TNA. I very much doubt if a second LS&GC could be awarded, it goes against the basic law of parsimony, followed in all matters by the Treasury.. However, there is another attack: his regimental number. Given that R Inn F were required to start a new series [the fourth such] at 1 in 1881, and given that his service must predate that watershed [by number of GC badges] his number should appear unusual in any medal roll. At a guess [which I can check], numbers issued were about 11000 at start Great War, about 6000 for Boer War. The third series began at 1 in 1873. This series only lasted eight years and typical numbers only ran to about 2000. He might even be second series [from 1856], which was often a battalion series not a regimental one, so, again, the series did not reach large numbers. Thus, in a medal roll c. 1900, we would expect his number to be fairly unusual, and in a 1911 roll, VERY unusual. I will have a nosey around. Yes! From Paul Nixon's excellent site: 10 joined on 30th July 1881 289 joined on 17th October 1882 599 joined on 11th July 1883 837 joined on 12th February 1884 1501 joined on 8th June 1885 1847 joined on 30th January 1886 2210 joined on 17th April 1887 2442 joined on 27th February 1888 2849 joined on 8th February 1889 3293 joined on 9th July 1890 3505 joined on 28th January 1891 3885 joined on 10th May 1892 4195 joined on 15th January 1893 4609 joined on 29th May 1894 4814 joined on 22nd January 1895 5201 joined on 18th January 1896 5507 joined on 19th August 1897 5975 joined on 25th July 1898 6208 joined on 31st January 1899 6489 joined on 5th January 1900 6890 joined on 28th February 1901 7295 joined on 21st July 1902 7648 joined on 24th April 1903 7959 joined on 24th May 1904 8251 joined on 28th February 1905 8447 joined on 3rd February 1906 8920 joined on 9th January1907 9521 joined on 28th August 1908 9646 joined on 22nd April 1909 9812 joined on 17th February 1910 10094 joined on 2nd September 1911 10277 joined on 8th May 1912 10591 joined on 15th November 1913 10744 joined on 3rd August 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 October , 2012 Share Posted 21 October , 2012 Medal ribbons appear to me to be as you have identified. Claim no expertise on ribbons/medals but just going on the likely way colours would be represented the ribbons would appear to fit the id of two IGS, Coronation, LSGC. Browsing for pictures of ribbons to compare it would appear that a clasp (?) can be issued on the current LSGC medal for extra periods of service. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2012 Thank you Chris ......... I needed the collateral! Have written to the Curator R Inn F Museum and will report back if I get anywhere. I understand that bars for further service were authorised after 1940, so that lets our old codger out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 22 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 22 October , 2012 Looking at the battalion histories, he could only have been in the 2nd Bn to get the India 1895 medal. 27th Regiment From 1854 and 1868 it served in India as part of the suppression of the Indian Mutiny and helped to maintain law and order in North-West India. 108th Regiment The regiment was originally raised by the Honourable East India Company in 1854 as the 3rd Madras (European) Regiment, and served in the Indian Mutiny of 1857. As with all other "European" units of the Company, they were placed under the command of the Crown in 1858, and formally moved into the British Army in 1862, ranked as the 108th Foot. Location of 1st Battalion Hong Kong 1881–1883 Straits Settlements and Singapore 1883–1886 South Africa 1886–1889 Ireland 1893-1899 Boer War Ireland 1902-1907 Crete and Malta 1907-1911 China 1911-1913 India 1913- Location of 2nd Battalion England 1881-1882 Ineland 1882-1886 England 1886-1888 India and Burma 1888-1899 The 2nd Battalion only arrived in South Africa from India in the late stages of the war and saw little action. Egypt 1902-1908 Ireland 1908-1910 England 1910-1914 Here is a list of men from 2nd Bn on the medal roll for Indian Medal 1895 with clasps for Punjab Frontier 97-98, Malakani 97, Samana 97, Tirah 97-98 (AO77 of 1898) with a regimental number below 3000 who were also awarded an LSGC between 1881 and 1919. I've also added any other medals I can find awarded to them. 2661 QMS Peters George M 1896 Transvaal 1026 Sgt Elliott George 1902 1530 Cpl Beggs William 1903 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 1553 QMS Lumsden Richard 1904 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 1753 Pte Perry William J 1904 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 1670 Sgt McKillop David 1905 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2210 L Cpl Barnett George 1905 1495 Sgt Walker John H 1906 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2490 Col Sgt Porter Robert J 1906 KSA 1902 2546 Pte Porter Joseph 1906 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2654 Sgt Grant George 1906 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2127 Sgt Drummer Eldon Arthur 1907 2309 Sgt Dillon Thomas 1907 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2729 Sgt Boyle Hugh 1907 Orange Free State, Transvaal, KSA 1902 2870 Sgt Blakeney John 1907 Orange Free State, Transvaal 2895 Sgt Brown Samuel 1907 2378 Sgt Farrell Thomas *1887-8 Same number - different man* KSA 1902, Pte 2378 Thomas Farrell forfeited Orange Free State and Transvaal - Retd 13.4.05 I can't yet find any of them getting the India 1854 medal. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2012 Glen, thank you very much ............ do you concur with the identification of the ribbons please? These searches sometimes come to nothing of course. I wonder if the coronation medal is a way of narrowing the hunt? 2nd battalion was in right place to do a spot of street-lining! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 22 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 22 October , 2012 I think you've got the medals correct. I can't really see anything similar to match the locations they served. I've now found a list of the clasps issued to the 1854 medal so thereis more to go on. When I get the coronation roll I'll have a look at some muster rolls from mid 1870s and 80s too. Of course this is all assuming it is not some sort of soldeirs' joke using up surplus GC stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgibbs Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 I wonder if his career spanned a lot of time in India perhaps he was in the 27th Rgt of Foot or the 108th Madras Infwhich were merged to form the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the R Inn F..?! I certainly agree the medal ribbons are as you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 23 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2012 I think you've got the medals correct. I can't really see anything similar to match the locations they served. I've now found a list of the clasps issued to the 1854 medal so thereis more to go on. When I get the coronation roll I'll have a look at some muster rolls from mid 1870s and 80s too. Of course this is all assuming it is not some sort of soldeirs' joke using up surplus GC stripes. Yes, a nasty thought! 1. he is genuinely not a 40 year-old from his stance, His medal ribbons are plausible and not fancy dress. 2. however, the GC badges did come in multiples of 1,2,3,4 AND 6. OO=er missus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 23 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 23 October , 2012 Just to add to the confusion, could the India 1854 actually be for Abyssinia 1867-68? I came across this while looking for images of the medals to compare to the photo and here is the medal itself. I don't know how authoritative that site is but if true, even this old boy couldn't have been in in 1858. Anyway, I'll get the Coronation roll and some muster rolls on Thursday or Friday and wait for the Museum to reply. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Our man was almost certainly serving on or before 1875. So he could have been either battalion/ regiment up to 1881, thereafter either battalion. The IGS 1854 was awarded for any minor op. until [and including] Waziristan 1894-5, after which the 1895 version clicked in. There were at least 12 campaigns in which a battalion stationed in India could have taken part ........... we need a R Inn F expert. Thank you in advance for trying for the Coronation roll. As for the museum, experience tells me we should not hold our collective breath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 24 October , 2012 Share Posted 24 October , 2012 Looks like he may have had crossed swords or similar above his chevron (removed) Grumpy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 25 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2012 I have had a reply from the regimental museum, which I shall research further and report back. Most of our surmises/ conclusions were correct. The medals are: IGS 1895 Punjab Frontier, Tirah , QSA Transvaal OFS [a surprise], LSGC, Coronation 1911. I have some service details including name but would like to put a little more flesh on the bones before attempting chapter and verse. This is because one or two of the details offered are surprising and I want to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 25 October , 2012 Share Posted 25 October , 2012 We await with baited breath - look forward to hearing soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 25 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 25 October , 2012 We await with baited breath - look forward to hearing soon! You're waiting with bated breath??? I got home from Kew tonight thinking the 1991 Roll was a bit of a waste of time as only a small group of men received the medal to hear Grumpy's great news. I've PMed Grumpy some names and will wait for him to tell us more but in the meantime, here are the qualifying rules for the 1911 Coronation Medal and an example from the RWF for Grumps: SUMMARY OF INSTRUCTIONS WITH REFERENCE TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE CORONATION MEDAL, 1911 (snip) REGIMENTAL OFFICERS AND MEN, REGULAR FORCES Officers Commanding and Adjutants of Household Cavalry Regimetns and Battalions of Foot Guards. All ranks of the King's Escort of the Royal Horse Guards on the 22nd June and of the Guard of Honour in Westminster Abbey. All Officers and the senior NCO of other Escorts and Guards of Honour on the 22nd and 23rd June and 1st July (at Slough and Windsor), Yeoman Warders of the Tower. Orderlies on Permanent duty at Buckingham Palace and Marlborough House. Each Commanding Officer of a Regiment of Cavalry, Battalion of Infantry, Brigade of Horse or Field Artillery. The Quarter-Master or Riding Master of a unit, whichever was the senior of the two. A Warant of NCO of each Battalion or equivalent Lieutenant-Colonel's Command (selected by the Commanding Officer). The private soldier with the longest total service of each Battalion or equivalent Lieutenant-Colonel's Command. The Bandmaster of each Band which was actually present in the streets of London on Coronation Day (22nd June). N.B. In each of the above cases a due numerical proportion of medals has been given to the Royal Garrison ARtillery, Royal Engineers, Army Service Corps, Rotal Army Medical Corps, Army Veterinary Corps, Army Chaplains' Department, Staff for Royal Engineer Services, Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service, Army Ordnance Corps, Army PAy DFepartment and Army Pay Corps, Military Police Provost Staff Corps and Army Schools. Medals have also been awarded to officers and men of the Royal Hospital Chelsea, Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Militry Schools &c. RWF 1st Battalion Col Juggulden, H A Maj Cadogan, H O S Lt & QrMr Parker, E A 3358 Sgt MAjor William, G 898 Pte O'Brien, M 3rd Battalion Col Godfrey, R F Lt Jones, E T Capt & QrMr Clieve, J F 3294 Sgt Colley, J 233 Pte Higgins, B 4th Battalion Col Wynne-Edwards, T A (V.D.) Lt Roberts, R. Maj&QrMr Sumnal, T. (V.D.) 482 Col Sgt Phillips, W. 2286 Pte Roberts, J. 5th Battalion Lt-Col Hurlbutt, C. Capt Hartley, E A C Lt&QrMR Claridge, G. 350 Col Sgt Davies, D E 369 Pte Hayes, W. 6th Battalion Lt-Col Darbishire, C H Lt Battersby, G L. Capt&QrMr Armstrong, T. 314 Col Sgt Jones, T 179 Pte Jones, D. 7th Battalion Lt-Col Longueville, R. Major Jelf-Revely, A E R. CApt&QrMr Richards, W F. 105 Sgt Rogers, F. 2042 Pte Richards, E I Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Thank you very much Glen. My man is still an ongoing mystery in some respects because of a press cutting and what I take to be museum comments appended thereto, some of which strike me as a bit dubious. However, hard facts now, as quoted from the Museum brief. Anything I have checked is in bold. Anything I struggle with is in italics. Here goes! L-Cpl 2293 Edward "Dutchy" Pearce. said to have enlisted 108th RoF 31 Aug 1866 age 18 at Fareham, Hants India 1868 to 1876, returned Home with battalion Colchester, Portsmouth and Preston. 1885 with 2nd R Inn F [amalgamated regiment 1881] to Malta 5 months, thence Home. India with 2nd R Inn F 1888, India Medal 1895 clasps Punjab Frontier and Tirah as Private 2293 Continuously overseas until battalion returned Home Dublin 1908, during which time it served for a while in Egypt and South Africa. QSA clasps Transvaal, OFS and 1902. as Private 2293 Depot Omagh until discharge .31 July 1923. LS&GC could have been any time after 1884 under the rules [18 years qualification after rule change 1870]. Royal Hospital Chelsea until death two years later. 20 Aug 1925 Coronation medal 1911 [presumably under the rules as quoted above] Said to have qualified for BWM but did not apply for it. My comments. His number could well have been from second series begun 1856, although I am not sure if HEIC regiments toed that line. Recruiting for most battalions [who each seem to have run a battalion series, not a regimental one] ran at about 200 per annum, so that 2293 after 10 years is very believable. The rules for change of number make it very likely that he retained his, both in 1873 [new series] and the major restructuring in 1881 [new series which ran until 1920]. If this is the case he would have served beside two men with the same number if they were both allocated to 2nd Bn R Inn F. In the 1920 renumbering he was forced to become 6972003 I have no idea when he was appointed L-Cpl. Attempts to locate his records by myself and a colleague have thus far failed but I have reason to believe more digging might be worth while. I am corresponding with the Museum who are being very helpful. They claim [and I am minded to agree] he was the longest serving ranker ever. Comments, suggestions and help welcome! Census? Local newspapers? Royal Hospital Records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 26 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Grumpy He got the Coronation Medal as a L-Cpl so he was appointed at least once to that position between 1902 and 1911. HE is not listed on the LSGC rolls for between 1881 and 1919 (were they automatic or did he need to apply?) so perhaps it was kind of a retirement present. AS for his BWM, I thought it was automatically sent to ORs if they qualified (I'll leave that to your other question) but there is a 2293 A/WOII George Evans listed in the MICs for the Innislkillings. He got a pair and there is a date about Duplicates on 9.9.42. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a mention in the local papers in Omagh upon discharge and probably in London in 1925. I don't know what the Royal Hospital holds re old patients but worth asking them. Here is the registration of his death. You'll need this for a death certificate so you can get his record from MoD Name: PEARCE, Edward Registration district: Chelsea County: London Year of registration: 1925 Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep Age at death:77 Volume no: 1A Page no: 344 Off to look at some muster rolls now. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 I'll start you with the easy one.... 1911 Census Mandora Barracks, Stanhope Lines, Aldershot 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Edward Pearce, age 63, Single, Private, born at Dublin So he was born about 1847/48. I am assuming that there is not a different man of the same name with similar details! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Brilliant my men! Thank you, will keep adding what I get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 26 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Here he is in early 1876 getting paid for his first two stripes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 26 October , 2012 Admin Share Posted 26 October , 2012 And in late 1876 early 1877 at Colchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Wish I knew how to do that! This from my article: Two sources suggest a variation in the qualifying periods by 1860; The Victorian Army at Home by JR Skelley and the MHS Bulletin quoted above, but they disagree in the number of badges possible: the former says that badges could be awarded at 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, 28, 33 and 38 years, whereas the latter (quoting an Account Book printed in 1865) stops at 28 years. The RW 1866 published the shorter list and also confirmed acceleration by two years for the last three badges for continuous good conduct. Again, soldiers under sergeant were eligible, and those junior to corporal of the Household Cavalry were added. In subsequent editions, this latter rank became corporal of horse. There is no note of the method of wearing of the badges, and such a note does not appear until 1881. The next RW (1870)makes yet another change, to 2, 6, 12, 18, 23 and 28, with acceleration by two years for the last three badges. These periods remained virtually unchanged until near-modern times, but there are suggestions that the left sleeve became the preferred one c.1875. Around this time, there was certainly some confusion as to the correct mode of wearing, culminating in the positioning of the badges on both sleeves for good measure, as shown in Carman’s Dictionary of Military Uniform on a 3-badge Northumberland Fusilier. In 1878 the warrant leaves the eligible ranks and the periods unchanged, and also grants an extra year’s credit to the garrisons of the Indian Mutiny sieges at Lucknow and the Alumbagh. There was in 1881 (as in so many other subjects under the Cardwell reforms) a major rewrite of the warrant with regard to Good Conduct Badges and Pay. Beginning with Paragraph 914, it noted that the badge is a high distinction conferred under the rank of corporal, 2nd corporal or bombardier as a token of ‘Our Royal approbation of good conduct’, to be marked by a chevron worn on the left arm (upper or lower not specified, but photographic evidence since the Crimean War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 The old boy now noted on ARRSE. More may come from that link. Skins members there that may have the story. http://www.arrse.co.uk/seniors/189508-57-years-service-any-served-longer.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2012 Thank you. Skiver indeed. I have other material that I am checking that suggests he was indignant at NOT being allowed on active service in the Great War. Easy to rush to judgement, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 You're going to like this, Grumpy..... Poor lad only had seven stripes in 1897. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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