Guest Hill 60 Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 I bought this picture because it looked good! It appears he is wearing a ribbon bar with the VC, MM & 1914 (or 1915) Star. Does anyone have any ideas as to who this soldier is please? The reverse of the picture (postcard) has the following printed on it: 'CARTOLINA POSTALE' and "RAJAR". I don't know if that would help place him at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_H Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Lee This man is from the 29th Division. The badge on his sleeve is the 29th Div red triangle sign with the divisional badge of honour superimposed. This award was instituted in about July 1917 by Major General de Lisle as divisional commander. Men who had recieved a gallantry award or had been mentioned in dispatches received a certificate and the small enamel badge to be worn on the div sign on the right arm. The badge was the red triangle surrounded by a green laurel wreath. Is this man a VC? I have checked the 29th Div. history and if he is it could be Pte. Martin Moffat, 2nd Leinster Regt. or Pte Frederick Dancox, 4th Worcesters. All the othe VCs in the Div were NCOs or officers or 2 privates in 1st Lancs Fusiliers and the shoulder title in the photo is not a fusilier title. The photo is so clear that I would expect to be able to see the VC miniature on the ribbon but can't. Can you see it on the original? If not I would suspect that the ribbon before the MM is a DCM ribbon and that there was not enough contrast for the different colours to show in a black & white photo. Hope this is of some help. Mike_H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Mike - You could well be right on the DCM! I just blew the picture up and it does appear to show a slightly different colour in the centre of the ribbon. Oh well, no chance of finding out who he was I suppose Thanks for the help Pal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Other points, which I hope might narrow it down: he has a 1914 service stripe on his right sleeve (red) and stripes for 1915, 1916, 1917. Four wound stripes on left. I'd doubt that it is a DCM. Whilst photographic emulsions can play tricks on medal ribbons in old monochrome plates like this (inverting light and dark shades is common), there doesn't seem to be any boundary to indicate three stripes (two red, one blue) for a DCM. A quick search of VC sites online suggests that neither Dancox or Moffat had MMs to go with their VCs. Infuriatingly, no pictures to narrow it down. Dancox was killed on 30 Nov 17 - seven weeks after the act which gained his award - so it's unlikely to be him, as it may not have been gazetted by then. Moffat's was awarded in the LG on Boxing Day 1918; he died in 1946. I also believed that the miniature device on the ribbon was a post-war innovation, following the institution of the joint crimson ribbon in 1918 - and wouldn't have been worn during the war. (?) There is a large, illuminated, leather bound 29th Division 'honour book' at the IWM listing ALL the divisional awards (it's quite a beautiful thing as a piece of art, let alone anything else!). Sorry I can't say 'oh yes, it's...'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Lee I have just found a picture of Dancox in one of my books and he doesn't look like your man. Also he was 38 years old when he won his VC and your man looks younger. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munce Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 I think I read somewhere that the minature VC cross on the ribbon originally indicated a bar to the award, but I can't remember when the current system came into force (I think around 1917)- perhaps your photo is a VC after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Lee Cartolina is the Italian for postcard and so it is here that the photograph was probably taken. The miniature cross for the VC riband was introduced in early 1918, at the same time as rosettes to indicate the award of bars. The 1914-15 Star was instituted just after the end of the war, while the 1914 Star came in in December 1917. It is, as you say, difficult to tell whether the first riband is a VC or DCM. I personally suspect that the picture was taken late in 1918 and hence it is more likely to be a DCM. If it was taken in Italy, this would rule out 29th Division, which did not serve there. The possibilities are 7th, 23rd and 48th. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Lee Rajar was a village in Israel. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Many thanks to all of you who took the time to help out on this one. However, I am now really confused I will keep looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Lee, What is the Regimental shoulder title? If you can make it out! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 5 April , 2003 Share Posted 5 April , 2003 Forgive me being suspicious but looking at the picture the wound stripes appear to be added to the photograph - they do not appear to match the creases in the uniform jacket sleeve. As for the language on the card - whilst it may point to Italy it may also be tha case that the stock photographic paper was originated in Italy but had been exported for use elsewhere OR had been manufactured for the Italian market but ended up elsewhere (Palestine? - who knows?) That should leave Lee even more confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 If Dancox was killed in 1917 it cannot be him as the service chevrons were not introduced until 1918. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Ian - Sorry, it can't be made out on the original. Come on! That would be too easy Martin - I agree, it does look a little odd. I did wonder if it was some sort of 'made up' photo showing how certain badges should be worn OR a later fake photo John - Thanks, you're right on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 I don't think it's a fake photo; heavy retouching was again common on studio portraits. But Martin's got a point, having peered at the pic closely. The wound stripes were brass strips, secured by cotter pins and usually held taught by a back plate; in this picture, there seems to be a crease underneath the 3rd & 4th (from left to right) which shouldn't be there? If only these fellows had sat like modern senior officers do in official portrait pictures ... (a former boss of mine certainly did) the arm with the wings [Para/SAS] is turned ever so prominently to the camera! At least then we could have a decent stab at the ST! I can only think that the solution is to refer to the 29th Division book of honours at the IWM; the combination of Divisional certificate, VC or DCM [hedging bets now] and MM would surely locate him? It's like that one I'm sure we've all had - group photos. You don't put your own name on; the people you're sending it to know it's you! But for historians.. the list says "Jack Smith, Fred Brown, Joe Green, Me..' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Wound stripes were not only of the brass type. The initial Army Order of July 1916 spoke of the stripe consisting of strips of gold Russia braid No 1, 2 inches in length, sewn 3 inches from the left cuff, 1/2 inch apart. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 It's like that one I'm sure we've all had - group photos. You don't put your own name on; the people you're sending it to know it's you! But for historians.. the list says "Jack Smith, Fred Brown, Joe Green, Me..' Oh, I have many of them! A lovely photo of 'C' Company, 22nd Middlesex Regt with 'July 2, I join 22 Middx' written on the reverse, that was included in a batch of family pictures! Also a photo of "Polly's son" . Who the heck is Polly??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Lee - I reckon this is really YOU in a late April's Fool prank on the Pals! Admit it Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Lee - I reckon this is really YOU in a late April's Fool prank on the Pals! Admit it Ian - YOU'VE CAUGHT ME Seriously, I wish it was me at least then I'd know who he was!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Wound stripes were not only of the brass type. The initial Army Order of July 1916 spoke of the stripe consisting of strips of gold Russia braid No 1, 2 inches in length, sewn 3 inches from the left cuff, 1/2 inch apart. John. Weren't these just for officer's service dress? All officer's wound stripes that I've seen match this description. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 April , 2003 Share Posted 6 April , 2003 Dave, The wound stripes of Russian braid were for both Officers and soldiers (GRO 1864, 1957). Indents of the required quantity were to be made through the applicable Ordnance Officer and sewing on was to be carried out regimentally with no expense to the public. Only first issues were free and all replacements were paid through the EFC and not ordnance stores either regimentally or by the individual. Russian braid can be found on ORs jackets but by far the most common found are the Brass stripes that came through the EFC. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 April , 2003 Share Posted 7 April , 2003 Thanks Joe. Could you answer me a couple more questions about these stripes ,please? : The one braid wound stripe that I possess is attached to a rectangle of khaki cloth backing.Is this how they were issued ,or was it just the stripe itself that was issued? Also, did officer's ever wear the brass stripes? Thanks, dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 7 April , 2003 Share Posted 7 April , 2003 Dave, GRO's state the first issues would be Russian Braid cut to length with thread to sew. I doubt the issue braid came with extra serge material. If extra serge wool material was found with the stripe this is how it was sold through the EFC, so in the end it was the soldiers choice to pay the extra, or the unit footed the bill regimentally. But official issue did not include the serge wool. Original Brass stripes in my collection, or I've examined, primarily come with a brass backing plate, but not always. Only one has a peice of serge that was used to sew to the outside of the sleeve as more of a stiffener on a KD frock, ie. used to give the sleeve material more body. It also made it more visually appealing. I've never encountered a peice of Serge used with a wound stripe on SD jacket, not that it did not occur I just have not seen or noticed it. All, but one of the Brass stripes in my collection are the type with the loops and split pin which may or may not have the backing plate, but which all could have. I have one Jacket to the 4th CMGC Bn with another rarer/cheaper version of the wound strip which was brass with prongs that needed to be bent over to hold to the sleeve. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 11 April , 2003 Share Posted 11 April , 2003 I've never encountered a peice of Serge used with a wound stripe on SD jacket, not that it did not occur I just have not seen or noticed it. Joe. I don't know whether or not you've got the book (if not, I'll send you a scan if you wish) "The British Soldier in the 20th Century Volume 1, Service Dress 1902-1940" by Mike Chappell, but on page 13 is a photo of an RAMC soldier with two wonded stripes on what looks like the serge background that we are talking about, being worn on his SD tunic. There are drawings of the same on pages 14 and 16. Could you also tell me the differences between "The wounded stripe Nr.2" and "The wounded stripe Nr.4". I have an example of both of these and both look the same to me! Thanks, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 14 April , 2003 Share Posted 14 April , 2003 I thought that I'd better come in on this interesting discussion. I am wondering if this fellow had been transferred to the 29th Division from another. My great-grandfather was with the 4th, 11th and 43rd Divisions between 1914 and 1916. As this man is only a Private, it might be only a matter of time before we work out who he is. I'm going to have a go myself. Frank Bartholomew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FRANKBARTHOLOMEW Posted 14 April , 2003 Share Posted 14 April , 2003 Well, if it's an April Fool's Prank, a DCM, or a fake. Only one bloke fits the bill, in terms of VC and MM- and he was Gunner (ltr. Bombardier) Charles Stone- 83rd Brigade RFA. The VC was awarded for actions in March 1918 in France. It's got me... I'm way confused now. Frank Bartholomew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now