Help with uniforms please

[Muerrisch]

Excellent photo and thread.

A few minor points:

1. as far as foto only concerned, the only dating can be "early 1918 or later" vide overseas badges AO Jan 1918 and the 1914? ribbon issued late 1917. The absence of BWM and VM ribbons suggests earlier than late 1919, of course.

2. if substantially later, into 1919, ribbon could be 1914-15 star, identical.

3. Not entirely true regimental buttons = post war. Search and ye will find lots of examples, usually private purchase

4. rules on continuity of overseas badges regarding hospitalisation for wounds are far from clear,

AO 4/1918

4. the qualifying service need not be continuous .... up to one month UK leave if soldier returned overseas, and also hospital not due to avoidable causes . Now, whether the hospital had to be in the theatre of war, or whether UK was OK if soldier returned overseas, I have never determined. Anyway, to cut a long story short, a soldier going to war in 1914 and frequently wounded, and frequently on leave, could in theory get the full hand of badges under the rules .......... unlikely, but those were the initial rules.

Subsequently the rules were amended, primarily so that PoW did not miss out.

5. Two good conduct badges, again under the rules, could mean anything between 5 and 12 years [less a day] undetected crime: the third was not available until 12 years.

[Muerrisch]

You could enlist at the age of 15 as a boy usually as a drummer. You'd get an education and learn soldiering and drumming etc but weren't supposed to be in combat.

Not sure where that comes from.

Boyse were enlisted between ages 14 and 16 years, with parental permission and birth certificate. They became "men" at 18 with a pay rise from 8d up to 1/- per day. Drummers, buglers, pipers and trumpeters under the age of 19 years were specifically allowed, with CO consent, to proceed with unit on active service, as per 1914 Mobilization Regulations. And indeed did.

[Stebie9173]

There is a reference to James Selby being wounded during April/May 1915 in the Times of 23-9-1915:

(even though the initial is wrong it is very likely to be him)

This probably refers to the battle of Festubert in which the 2nd Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regiment took part on 16th May 1915.

See:

http://www.bedfordre...n1915diary.html

With regards to James' numbering it would seem that his numbers were issued about the following dates:

9627 Bedfordshire Regiment - approx. June 1910 (per Pension record of 9625 Albert Smewing)

22334 Royal Irish Fusiliers - approx. 5-11-1915 upon transfer (records of 22368 Sylvan Woodin)

51860 Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment (approx. February 1919 upon transfer back to his old regiment, per records of 51874 Ernest C Pawley)

5943145 Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment in 1920 upon issue of Army numbers (the first number issued to the Beds & Herts was 5942001)

(Each of the above is reliant on service records of other men, for which you would need to build up a fuller picture by reference to as many records of men with adjacent numbers as possible)

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

As far as William goes I have found the following:

Admission to School: William Selby, born 22-4-1896, son of Charles Selby, 44 Harman Street, admitted to Hamond Square School, Hackney, 6-11-1899

(also to the same school: James H Selby, born Dec 1892, son of Charles Selby, Harman Street, admitted to Hamond Square School, Hackney, 27-2-1899)

1901 Census:

44 Harman Street, Shoreditch (all listed as "Selly")

Charles Selby, head, age 30, cabinet maker, born at Shoreditch

Sarah Selby, wife, age 29, born at Shoreditch

James Selby, son, age 8, born at Shoreditch

William Selby, son, age 5, born at Shoreditch

Sarah E Selby, daughter, age 3, born at Shoreditch

Minnie Selby, daughter, age 2, born at Shoreditch

1911 Census: William Selby, age 14, born at Kingsland, London; residence: Training Ship Arethusa and Chichester, River Thames, off Greenhithe; occupation: training ship boy.

Married Madge Head (born 16-2-1900 at Handsworth, died 1994) at Aston in 1919

Lived at 123 Burney Lane, Birmingham at time of death

Died on 11-1-1947

Possible baptism: William George Selby, son of Charles Selby (cabinet maker) and Sarah Selby, baptised at St Pauls, Bethnal Green, 3-5-1896. Date of birth given as 13-4-1896.

Possible marriage of parents: Charles William Selby (age 22, cabinet maker, son of Charles Lewis Selby*, cabinet maker) to Sarah Brown (daughter of John Brown, deceased) at St James the Great, Bethnal Green, 30-3-1890.

* Other records around the time list Charles Lewis Selby at 42 Harman Street.

Steve.

[Bluesden]

Steve. Thank you so much. I can verify that all you have found is spot on. I have some of these dates already and they match. However, you have succeeded in filling in some big gaps for me such as actual dates rather than quarters and home addresses and military careers. I'm franticly collating all of the data I have been provided here. As I said before; I started with a photograph and now have so much information that has really bought these two men to life. With so much to read up on still. You have my eternal gratitude for the hours you have invested in solving my mystery.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

No problem, Jim. There are other family records for them on Ancestry, so it may be worth getting a trial subscription or using it at your local library.

Steve.

[asanewt]

Just come back to this great photo' 'cos the medal card shows "clasp and roses" but they don't seem to be sewn on.

A similar topic debates the roses issue and use, all of, which I find very interesting.

[Muerrisch]

Earliest possible issue of a rose to sew on ribbon late 1919.

[Bluesden]

Hello again.

I have stumbled across another photo. As I was so blown away by the knowledge and enthusiasm of all that replied last time, I'm hoping you won't mind helping again. Now here's the catch... I think the photo is WW1 but it could be WW2. I'm hoping the badge on the hat is a dead giveaway...

Cheers

Jim

[FROGSMILE]

Hello again.

I have stumbled across another photo. As I was so blown away by the knowledge and enthusiasm of all that replied last time, I'm hoping you won't mind helping again. Now here's the catch... I think the photo is WW1 but it could be WW2. I'm hoping the badge on the hat is a dead giveaway...

Cheers

Jim

It is WW2. He is wearing 1941 pattern battle dress and a general service cap (GSC) - which was not unlike the Scottish Tam-o-Shanter - and replaced the field service cap (FSC) in 1943. The cap badge is hard to make out but it looks like a coat of arms and thus perhaps General Service Corps.