Bluesden Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Hello. I have just stared researching my family tree and discovered the attached photo. I have no idea bout things miltary and so have no clue about the uniforms each of these men are wearing. I would be grateful for ANY information related to their badges, stripes and even rope on the shoulder! For the record, the man on the right is my grandfather and the man on his left is his brother. I don't even know if the regiments are the same... Thank you in advance. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 I'll have a go. Man on left: Sergeant (stripes on upper sleeves) Four overseas stripes denoting 3 to 4 years overseas (three blue, one red for 1914) 1914 Star medal ribbon (unless 1914 service was not in France/Flanders) Lanyard on left shoulder (often seen on those men who had horse duties) Two wound stripes on left lower sleeve Marksman badge above Man on right: Private Three overseas stripes denoting 2 to 3 years overseas (two blue, one red for 1914) 1914 Star medal ribbon (unless 1914 service was not in France/Flanders) Two good conduct chevrons (one awarded after two years, 2nd after next 3 years, i.e. 5 years total) Five (!!!) wound stripes on left lower sleeve Lewis gunner badge above I've seen the wound stripes for one soldier who had five wound stripes described as a "harp" (because he was nearly playing one in the heavenly choir!). The wounds probably account for the reduced number of years overseas. The overseas chevrons and 1914 Star ribbons tell use the photo was taken in 1918 or after. The shoulder titles on both men are not readable (to me!) The reason that the Sergeant does not have the good conduct stripes is that good conduct was assumed with Corporals and above. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 remarkable images... late 1918 I would think. with their names there should be little problem in identifying their regiments, as they will have 1914 star medal cards. london photo studio .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 27 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Oh wow. You have just brought this fading old photo to life for me. I can't imagine what these brothers must have gone through and now that I have a better understanding of their military lives, I have to say I feel quite emotional. Any advice on where I go next please? I know exactly who they are, but no idea where to look. I would love to know where they served, etc Thank you so, so much Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 a search here with a name will suggest whether their medal cards survive - they should probably have 2 cards, one for their 1914 star and another for the other 2 medals they would have - with fornames or initials.. depending on th names tyou may have to search many records.. they look young enough to have been privates or similar in 1914.. if Sgts by 1918. the cards are also digitised on 'ancestry' .. it would take a few moments for someone with access to check http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmarchand Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Just a minor correction to Steve's diagnosis. The Lanyard is actually for holding the clasp knife (jacknife) that is tucked into his pocket and does not denote anything other that being a knife holder. These are seen across all ranks and services worn on either side of the uniform. Very impressive service from both men. With any luck their service records will have suruvued the Blitz fires in 1940. You might also want to look through microfilms of their hometown or local newspapers as there may be some write ups on accoutn of their wounds and so forth, there were always a lot of local boy service stories being run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 The one to our left I believe to be a Fusilier(possibly a Royal Fusilier), due to the unique shape of the shoulder title - you can make out the ball of the grenade and the point of the flame, but alas square on I just can't make it out. Plus he's wearing buttons of a regimental pattern and not the standard General Service buttons common to service dress, which definately makes it post-war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Does the sergeant on the left have tape at the base of his shoulder straps? Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 27 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Joe. I have blown the image up as much as I can and it does look like that his shoulder straps are different at the base. Is this significant? Following the advice from Battiscombe, I followed the link to the National archives for their medal cards. So far I've found one for the man on the left (attached). No idea what I'm looking at though. Sorry to be such a complete amateur, but I guess that's what I am :-) Thanks again for all your advice. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Jim, The tapes might signify one of the Divisions that served in Salonika. These were 22, 26, 27 and 28th Div's. The color of the tape signified Division so can't tell which if that is the sign of one of those Divisions. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 27 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2012 Sorry, realised the medal card didn't upload first time. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 27 August , 2012 Share Posted 27 August , 2012 It looks like Jim Selby served in the Bedfords both before and after the war. He first served before the war with the Bedfords and then went to France/Flanders with 2nd Battalion on 6th October 1914. He then transferred to the Royal Irish Fusiliers being renumbered as 22334. He then transferred back to the Bedfords with number 51860 (I suspect that this is a 1919 number). Finally he received an Army number 5943145 when the system of numbers was changed from a Regimental number to an Army number in 1920. This may mean that his records are still held by the Ministry of Defence - the records of those men who served after 1921 were retained by the War Office and not affected by the fire in the Second World War that destroyed many records. Looking at the database of men killed in the war called Soldiers Died in the Great War, it looks like a fair few Bedfords were transferred to the 5th Royal Irish Fusiliers (which did indeed serve in Salonika) some time in 1915. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 28 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2012 I am truly, truly dumbstruck. I found a photograph this afternoon, did a bit of Google'ing this evening and found this site. In the space of a couple of hours I now have so much knowledge of my Grandfathers brother. I'm trying to find my grandfather but struggling a bit in the National archives site. Persevering though. Thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 From a VERY cursory check (i.e. checking the records of 22368 Sylvan Woodin) it looks like the men transferred to the Royal Irish Fusiliers in Oct/Nov 1915 and sailed to the Balkans on 5-11-1915 joining the 5th R.I.F. at Memsli, Salonika on 26-11-1915. He was also a 2nd Battalion Bedfords man who was serving in South Africa at the time of the outbreak of war and returned to the UK in September 1914 before going to France/Flanders with James Selby. The 5th R.I.F. moved to Palestine in late 1917 and returned to France in May 1918 until the end of the war. (Originally edited to my post above, but now as a separate post). If you let us have his (Williams?) details, we can see if we can help. However, must sleep! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 The Man on the left Sgt James H Selby was still serving with the Royal Irish Fusiliers when that photo was taken as that's the shoulder title he's wearing on his epaulette, that shows he'd reached the rank of Sgt prior to returning to the Beds Regt. Something else that stands out is that although each man has a red overseas service chevron denoting he served in a War zone in 1914, Sgt Selby only has a further 3 Blue, the Pte only 2, the reason this is significant is that after earning the initial Chevron on arrival in theatre, for each accumulated years service in a War theatre another blue one was awarded. This is significant because it shows the Sgt was out of theatre for over a year in total, the Pte 2 years, this will most likely be accounted for by the wound stripes as time in a UK hospital did not count towards Overseas Service, 5 wound stripes probably meant a fair amount of time in Hospital. I assume the Pte is William Selby from the photo's jpeg title? Did he have any middle names? Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 28 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2012 Hello again. A bit more research and checking with relatives (I so have the bug for this now) and I have found my Grandfather - William George Selby - the Lewis gunner with the Royal Berkshire Regiment on the right of the image at the very top of this thread. One relative believed his army number to be 10092. This medal card is the one on top. Interestingly I also found the one below it 11082, also William Selby. Not sure if they are connected or coincidental... I have been told that William joined the Marines at the age of 15, lied about his age but was discovered. They kicked him out! Apparantly, he stayed with the Royal Berks during WW2 as a reserve and was a Colonel at the Barrage balloon site in Burney Lane, Birmingham. I have also been given his discharge serial number: 7286 for 15th Dec 1931 and another (no date): 11945. But another relative has told me he was discharged during 1919 as unfit to serve. That'll be those wound stripes catching up on him maybe... Back to James Henry on the left of the image: He has been found in the 1911 census at Aldershot with the 1st battalion Bedfordshire regiment, so things are starting to take some shape and I'm getting cross references which is fantastic. Again, I have no clue to the details on Williams cards. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Whilst I am very grateful for everyone's help, I am also happy to do some further research. If you have resources that you can recommend that would be billiant too. Regards Jim Record 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 28 August , 2012 Admin Share Posted 28 August , 2012 Hi Jim The card on the left is more likelyto be your William as the other man didn't go overseas until May 1915 sdo he wouldn't have been awarded the 1914 Star seen in your photo. At the bottom left of this card is a reference to the Silver War Badge rolls which were for men discharged for no longer being able to serve as a soldier through wounds, sickness, age etc. The details for 10092 Pte William Selby shows he enlisted on 26.12.13 and was discharged on 30.7.19 due to sickness at the grand old age of 23! His date of entry of 6.11.14 would suggest he was with the 2nd Battalion: http://www.1914-1918.net/berks.htm I also think I can see a number (4?) inside the curve of the shoulder badge for BERKSHIRE so after one of his wounds he may have ended up in either 1/4 or 2/4 Battalions of the Berkshires but as they were TF units, this move probably wouldn't have happened until after 1916 when the distinction between Regular and TF Battalions was effectively removed by the Military Service Act (conscription) A bit more for information you to work with. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 28 August , 2012 Admin Share Posted 28 August , 2012 PS As the 2nd Berks were in 8th Division, there's a good chance one of his early wounds was at one of Neuve Chapelle, Aubers or Festubert. http://www.1914-1918.net/8div.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Macpherson Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 Jim ~ That bug has been busy, we all seem to have been bitten by it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 My thoughts exactly SPOF! (on both counts) There is a good book on the 2nd Royal Berkshire Regiment, and the Regimental Museum (known as the "Wardrobe") has a very good website. http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/home For both brothers it would be advisable to try and get a look at the medal rolls referred to on the medal index cards (not online, but at the National Archives at Kew) which should tell you which battalions of the relevant Regiments they served with. Again, it seems likely that William's full service record will be held by the MODs archives. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 There is this possible record for William's time in the Marines: Reference:ADM 159/109/226 Description: Name Selby, William George Register Number: 1853 Division: Royal Marines Band When Enlisted/Date of Enlistment: 04 May 1911 Date: 22 April 1896 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D7799178 These records are online and can be downloaded for a fee. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 28 August , 2012 Share Posted 28 August , 2012 The full card (with the back) for 10092 William Selby is on Ancestry. It has an address on it (due to the fact he lost his 1914 Star in 1920) this shows: 95 Grosvenor Road, Aston Manor, Birmingham. In 1921 he applied for his British War Medal and Victory Medal. At that time his address was 4 Waterworks Street, Aston, Birmingham. It also gives his full name as William George Selby. Do these addresses mean anything? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 28 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2012 Steve, they are perfect. These are just around the corner from where he settled and bought up his 7 children. If he enlisted 4th May 1911 in the Marines he would have been 15 so that fits perfectly with being thrown out. I guess I need to sign up to ancestry.co.uk and do some searching myself. I guess it's pretty straightforward to find what you have been finding for me...? Any special sections I need to concentrate on? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesden Posted 28 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2012 The myth of being thrown out for being underage has been busted. This form shows his real birthdate and the fact that he joined as a band boy. It looks like he was discharged on the basis of 'not likely to become an efficient marine'. it has some more adddresses though and should also help me with his 1911 census location as he was not at home at the time. Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 28 August , 2012 Admin Share Posted 28 August , 2012 You could enlist at the age of 15 as a boy usually as a drummer. You'd get an education and learn soldiering and drumming etc but weren't supposed to be in combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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