Roger H Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Can some expert tell me what all these markings mean? Thanks Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Canadian 18 Pr. Mark II case made by the Metal Drawing Co., St.Catherine's, Ontario (MDCo) in 1917. The three letter code (IQW?) below that is the lot code but the exact meaning has never been found. It was filled by Kynoch Birmingham (K) on 30 June 1917 and has been filled once with a full cordite charge (CF). The Broad Arrow within "C" is the Canadian government property mark. The No.1 Mark II primer is also Canadian and if the letters are "CGE" then it was made by Canadian Allis Chalmers Ltd. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger H Posted 10 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Blimey Tony. You don't know the name of the person who filled it with cordite by any chance?! thanks very much. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Tony Williamson's Guide notes that the Filling Station Monogram 'K' denotes Kingston, Canada - could this be more in keeping with the fact that this is a Canadian shell case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 I am not going to say that is wrong, but I am working from the original 1916 Ministry of Munitions "List of Stores Inspected by D.I.G.A (S) and D.I.M.A giving Trade Marks and Initials of Firms" which includes Great britain, America, Canada and India.. "K" has been used by Kynoch ever since they started making ammunition in the 19th century and they filled huge numbers of shell during WWI. Many of the Canadian shell cases were delivered to the UK empty and were filled here either by private contractors such as Kynoch or government facilities like the National Filling Factories. Does Mr. Wiliamson give any indication what or who "Kingston" is? For example, is it a company, government facility or place? I have not come across it before, but that does not mean a lot! There is no "Kingston" in my Min.of Mun. list but it only goes up to 1916 and the above case is dated 1917. Anyone else have any thoughts? Regards TonyE PS Roger - His name was Fred and he had a cheese sandwich for lunch that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Hi Tony Wiliamson cites the list of Filling Station Monograms in which it appears as being taken from "The Marking of Ammunition 1918" - unfortunately there is nothing further by way of a clue as to what or where Kingston is - the list is a mix of countries and places - that said there is an Armoury (now a military museum) in Kingston Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 OK. I have checked my copy of that manual, actually "Explanatory List of Service Markings 1918" and on Page 56 there is the list of Station Monograms and Initials including "K" for Kingston, Canada. These are not filling stations, and nowhere does the manual give them that title. They are ammunition stations or issuing depots and the initials would be found on ammunition packaging or possibly re-packs and the like. An example in that list is Woolwich, which as a depot has the monogram "W", but the Royal Arsenal that actually filled ammunition used the monogram "RL". A number of them are naval ammunition depots also, for example Pembroke, Priddy's Hard, Portsmouth, Crombie (for Rosyth) etc. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 Hi Tony Thank you for resolving the entry - Look's like the title used in Williamson may need amending Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 10 August , 2012 Share Posted 10 August , 2012 His name was Fred and he had a cheese sandwich for lunch that day. What sort of cheese ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 11 August , 2012 Share Posted 11 August , 2012 What sort of cheese ...? Why, Cheddite cheese of course! (Groan) Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 11 August , 2012 Share Posted 11 August , 2012 I have asked this question before but not had a satisfactory answer, the markings are for shell filling stations stamped on shells, the markings we always talk about are case markings, so were they filled at the same stations and marked the same way? I have a case marked KY which isn't on the list. Personally I have never seen the majority of those marks, and I have handled more than a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 11 August , 2012 Share Posted 11 August , 2012 It is a intriguing question. These stations may have started out as shell filling stations in the 19th Century but I cannot believe they were ALL filling shell in WWI. Shell filling was not a simple task by then. Was there really a shell filling station in Hyde Park? I can understand an ammunition depot as once filled but not fuzed shells are fairly safe, but a factory with large quantities of free explosive? . Similarly, look at the geographic spread around the world, some for the army and others obviously for the Royal Navy. Was the technology available there to fill shell? I suspect many were more likely to have been cartridge filling stations for bagged charges rather than shell. An example on a much smaller scale is that of "J" for Jamaica station. Packets of paper cartridges for the Pattern 53 muzzle loader are known with the "J" stamp as the manufacturer. Although these bagged charges were quite complex, actually making them up was relatively low tech. Cordite is very stable and could have been delivered to magazines in bulk and then cut and filled in the linen bags. Local labour with specialised sewing machines could do this work. Another point is that the history of the Ministry of Munitions talks in great detail about filling factories but makes no mention of these as shell filling stations. I have no firm evidence for the above and would be pleased to hear others thoughts. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Once a Fusilier Posted 17 April , 2014 Share Posted 17 April , 2014 Hi TonyE I have recently aquired a 18PDR brass case and paired it with a Shrapnel case complete with lead balls and fuse I purchased 22 years ago; I have gained a lot of information from the forum regarding markings but I am now so interested I would like to abtain any copies of reference data on all 18 PDR markings both at manufature, refilling and repair; I have read referencese to Williamsons Guides and others and would be gratefull if you could direct me to one or more definitive guides on this subject. Yours Sincerely Tony (Once A Fusilier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyD Posted 26 July , 2017 Share Posted 26 July , 2017 Wow, all that from the base of a shell cartridge! I am curious about learning more about my 18 pounder, now. My great-grand-uncle Hans Christian Duus was a gunner with the 7th Battery, 3rd Field Artillery Brigade, Australian Imperial Forces and his 18 pounder was near Denys Wood in early 1918 - before he was gassed and hospitalised having succumbed to Trench Foot, Trench Fever and any number of other Great War induced ailments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 26 July , 2017 Share Posted 26 July , 2017 Very sadly, TonyE passed on over a yr ago, and, frankly, there ain't no-one here now with his level of expertise and dedication as regards ammunition. I'd say you've got an 18-pounder Mk.II case with a 'C'ordite 'F'ull change, assembled on 02 Dec 1914 by Vickers, Sons & Maxim. Others might be able to add to that. (The bloke that stamped the 'F' lost his sandwiches on the way in to work, which is why he felt too weak to stamp it very hard... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyD Posted 27 July , 2017 Share Posted 27 July , 2017 Thank you very much for starting the full identification of this shell cartridge - and perhaps it was not so much Mr F-Stamper had lost his sandwiches as he was placed on rations and had already eaten his slice of bread for the week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 27 July , 2017 Share Posted 27 July , 2017 Sadly, it's actually almost 3 years since TonyE died (22 September 2014). Struggling to remember some of the many things he taught me, I think the explanation for the strongly-stamped 'C' and weakly-stamped 'F' may be that in 1914 the marking for a cartridge filled with cordite was 'C' alone and that the 'F' represents a subsequent refilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 27 July , 2017 Share Posted 27 July , 2017 Well, I was just trying to carry on TonyE's joke from earlier in the thread . Of course there was no rationing till 1918, so I stand by the Lost Sandwich theory for now... I *thought* that subsequent reloads with full charges were marked with extra 'F's after the first one, plus maybe some inspection marks to indicate the case was passed for re-use - but I might stand corrected on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 July , 2017 Share Posted 27 July , 2017 I sadly never met TonyE - missed meeting him personally by a couple of months... But like many on GWF interested in the weapons of war I learnt a lot from and also enjoyed his many postings... And so miss his ID's. advice, comments, and corrections, on so many things that go bangedy-bang... But, that aside, a useful general guide for future use by all and sundry to shell cartridge markings (ours and theirs - on the Western Front at least!) can be found at: https://ator1149.home.xs4all.nl/wfm/ww1/ammunition2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 27 July , 2017 Share Posted 27 July , 2017 'CF' was certainly the stamp for 'cordite full charge' during most of the war, MikB, with additional Fs added to denote subsequent fillings, but I think I remember Tony telling me (probably while poking around in the behind-the-scenes shell repository at Fort Nelson) that earlier shells were marked 'C' for 'cordite', when other propellants were also still in use. Refillings were then indicated by the addition of one or more Fs. I think 'CF' was one punch or stamp, so a mis-aligned or unevenly-struck 'CF' suggests two separate operations. But do not be too ready to 'stand corrected', because my memory may be mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downshill Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 Hope you can see detail of this 1918 13pdr shell.Its been sort of recrumpled narrow at the top ,somebody told me that was done so it could be reused by another calibre .No idea if that's right or not .Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 It is a good example of a 13Pdr 9cwt cartridge case, which was actually an 18Pdr case necked down to accommodate a 13Pdr projectile, for use in an anti-aircraft gun. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 10 May , 2020 Share Posted 10 May , 2020 Hi just found this shell in Mulroy Bay, Donegal, North west Ireland, me i my son out walking along the shore near Milford, great looking at the information you guys have put up, very useful thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 11 May , 2020 Share Posted 11 May , 2020 It’s a cartridge case for the 6 Pounder Hotchkiss gun. Most famously used in tanks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_6-pounder_Hotchkiss#United_Kingdom_service It’s a MkIII case made in 1918 by Kynoch (K) and loaded once with a full charge of cordite. (CF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfox53 Posted 23 May , 2020 Share Posted 23 May , 2020 Good afternoon chaps - I am struggling with one of the markings in the centre of this shell, its the No1 that confuses me II Any suggestions most welcome, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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