Easter Rising

[Steven Broomfield]

I had some Waterston'es Cards for my birthday, and bought Townshend's Easter 1916 - The Irish Rebellion as part of the package. I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

AGAIN, the Irish Time book of the Sinn Fein Rising contains a list of casualties, Military, Rebels and Civilians, I have put a link to it in my first post above, it is free and searchable. AGAIN there is a comprehensive list of CASUALTIES divided into Military, Rebels and Civilians on my website, there is a link in my first post. If you are trying to raise some sort of controversial debate by referring to the casualties as victims then you have come to the wrong place and in over thirty years of interest in the subject it is the first time I have seen the Rebels referred to as Risers, for your information and education I have put a link below to what a Riser is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riser

Not picking a fight but a book called 'They Died by Pearse's Side' listing the 'Irish deaths' needs qualification, you'd hardly expect it to be objective? Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British, as though by being one you couldn't be the other. An Irish Unionist history of the Rising would be called 'They died by Pearse's hand'.

2 storys I would like to explore. Firstly is the one of the Army officer who finds his own brother amongst the Riser prisoners. Secondly is the story I heard on Fergal Keane's very fine 'History of Ireland' where an Army officer who is actually killed who has a brother amongst the Risers? That it was literally as well as figuratively brother against brother?

[BrendanLee]

Not picking a fight but a book called 'They Died by Pearse's Side' listing the 'Irish deaths' needs qualification, you'd hardly expect it to be objective? Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British, as though by being one you couldn't be the other. An Irish Unionist history of the Rising would be called 'They died by Pearse's hand'.

2 storys I would like to explore. Firstly is the one of the Army officer who finds his own brother amongst the Riser prisoners. Secondly is the story I heard on Fergal Keane's very fine 'History of Ireland' where an Army officer who is actually killed who has a brother amongst the Risers? That it was literally as well as figuratively brother against brother?

I have not read the book so would not comment on it, if you read all the contributions I have made to this topic you will see I only reference contemporary sources or my own website. “Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British, as though by being one you couldn't be the other.” That is a rather brash statement to make without providing some backup.

I am not sure why people have this obsession with ‘Brother against Brother’, considering the amount of Irish men in the British Army at the time and that for the first few days of the Rising it was mainly Irish Regiments involved only two instances seems few. As far as I know it was not, in 1916, an offence to have a different political view to your brother or any other member of your family.

[depaor01]

L.C. Smyth:

You raise some interesting, but puzzling points:

"a book called 'They Died by Pearse's Side' listing the 'Irish deaths' needs qualification"

Why? I think you can guess that the poster recommending the book (and 99% of people reading his post) would be well aware of the content of the book by reading the title. It does indeed concentrate on the Irish Volunteers.

.

"you'd hardly expect it to be objective?"

No. The title gives it away.

"Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British"

They do, because Irish Nationalist histories are written from an Irish Nationalist point of view, and they are entitled to do so (even though I personally would be uncomfortable with some of their beliefs. So be it.)

"as though by being one you couldn't be the other"

The man in my posting footer was both. However most Irish Volunteers believed they weren't. There were exceptions of course, James Connolly being one.

"An Irish Unionist history of the Rising would be called 'They died by Pearse's hand'."

Agreed 100%

"2 storys I would like to explore. Firstly is the one of the Army officer who finds his own brother amongst the Riser prisoners. Secondly is the story I heard on Fergal Keane's very fine 'History of Ireland' where an Army officer who is actually killed who has a brother amongst the Risers? That it was literally as well as figuratively brother against brother?"

All down to the human tragedy of war, examples of which there are many. Personally, I'd offer a prayer for all of them.

Dave

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

I have not read the book so would not comment on it, if you read all the contributions I have made to this topic you will see I only reference contemporary sources or my own website. “Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British, as though by being one you couldn't be the other.” That is a rather brash statement to make without providing some backup.

I am not sure why people have this obsession with ‘Brother against Brother’, considering the amount of Irish men in the British Army at the time and that for the first few days of the Rising it was mainly Irish Regiments involved only two instances seems few. As far as I know it was not, in 1916, an offence to have a different political view to your brother or any other member of your family.

Fine to have differing political views, wrong to kill one another over them. All of the Great War was a tragedy as depaor01 said but surely Ireland must rank as the greatest of all?

[Steven Broomfield]

All of the Great War was a tragedy as depaor01 said but surely Ireland must rank as the greatest of all?

No more than any other Civil War, I'd say. Not sure the victims of Turkish oppression would agree, or victims of the Russian Civil War for that matter. In terms of deaths (either absolute or relative) I suspect events in Ireland are actually pretty small beer, all in all.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

No more than any other Civil War, I'd say. Not sure the victims of Turkish oppression would agree, or victims of the Russian Civil War for that matter. In terms of deaths (either absolute or relative) I suspect events in Ireland are actually pretty small beer, all in all.

In terms of deaths certainly, the Irish Guards alone suffered more people killed in the Great War than in the entire 1916-23 period. But it's the personal nature of it, neighbour against neighbour, brother against brother. One thing to wage war on a foreign field against the Germans, Turks, Russians etc another to come home from the horrors of the trenches to face it at home against the people you've grown up with all your life. It's all so senseless, so tragic

[BrendanLee]

Fine to have differing political views, wrong to kill one another over them. All of the Great War was a tragedy as depaor01 said but surely Ireland must rank as the greatest of all?

I think we would all agree it is wrong to kill over a difference of political viewpoint but unfortunately that is what starts wars be they Civil or otherwise. I am not sure why you would consider Ireland a greater tragedy than WW1, if you are referring to the Civil war then yes brother against brother and neighbour against neighbour may be tragic but that is what Civil war is, that is why it is called a Civil war.

With reference to your other comment that “Irish Nationalist histories always try to draw distinction between the Irish and the British, as though by being one you couldn't be the other” do you have any examples of this, along with the already mentioned James Connolly you might also like to do a little research on Constance Markievicz born in London, Robert Erskine Childers DSC born in London, Tom Clarke born on the Isle of White, I do not think I would be wrong in saying that had Clarke not supported the Rising then it would not have taken place.

[KGB]

No more than any other Civil War, I'd say. Not sure the victims of Turkish oppression would agree, or victims of the Russian Civil War for that matter. In terms of deaths (either absolute or relative) I suspect events in Ireland are actually pretty small beer, all in all.

We killed more of our own in the Civil War 1922-24 than in the War of Independence 1919-21.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

We killed more of our own in the Civil War 1922-24 than in the War of Independence 1919-21.

The Irish Civil War begins with the murder of Constable O'Brien outside Dublin Castle on Easter Week 1916, Irish Nationalism always tries to draw distinction between the 2 but it was always a Civil War, brother against brother, neighbour against neighbour. The point is that in countries like Russia Civil War was inevitable as they were dictatorships where political reform was impossible without it. Ireland was a free and democratic society, where peaceful compromise and negotiation was possible. There was no need for Irish Republicanism to attack Irish Unionism except that they wanted to.

As for casualties, maybe, maybe not, I've heard the figure put at several thousand to under 1000

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

Since Easter 1916 was during the Great War I assume this topic is legitimate here! come new to the rising, having just read two books about the topic - Agony at Easter, Thomas M Coffey and the much more recent The Rising Fearghal McGarry), and with a superabundance of ignorance on the topic.Can anyone recommend the best reading on the subject David Filsell

Has anyone mentioned Six Days to Shake an Empire by Charles Duff?

[Murrough]

The Irish Civil War begins with the murder of Constable O'Brien outside Dublin Castle on Easter Week 1916, Irish Nationalism always tries to draw distinction between the 2 but it was always a Civil War, brother against brother, neighbour against neighbour. The point is that in countries like Russia Civil War was inevitable as they were dictatorships where political reform was impossible without it. Ireland was a free and democratic society, where peaceful compromise and negotiation was possible. There was no need for Irish Republicanism to attack Irish Unionism except that they wanted to.

As for casualties, maybe, maybe not, I've heard the figure put at several thousand to under 1000

The "civil war" started the day Unionism formed the UVF,took up the german gun and defied the democratic will of the Irish people who wanted Home Rule.

[KGB]

The "civil war" started the day Unionism formed the UVF,took up the german gun and defied the democratic will of the Irish people who wanted Home Rule.

Again, I quibble, the Civil War started when the War of Independence ended. According to my History Professor at London Uni.

[Dublin Fusilier]

There are many books about the Easter Rising in Dublin 1916 , some are better than others and sometimes its a matter of reading many books to get to the trurh of the matter which means reading the bad ones aswell.

One of the posters said above that the Civil War started when Constable O'Brien was shot at St. Stephens Green in Dublin, which is a couple of years late in my opinion. It started with the forming and arming , with German guns , of the UVF. It was only later that the Irish Volunteers was formed. It was only the start of WW1 that stoped these two groups fighting each other in the streets an fields of Ireland.

The Rising was put down by Irish Regiments , mostly , and this was brother fighting brother. Many members of the Irish Volunteers joined the British army. This is what makes Irish history hard to understand especially to non-Irish , no offence intended.

Eamonn Ceannt one of the leaders of the Rising, executed 8th My 1916, had a brother William in the Dublin Fusiliers killed in action in WW1.

The father of Thomas Clarke ,executed 3rd May 1916 ,one of the leaders of the Rising served many years in the British Army.

Michael Mallin ,executed 8th may 1916, served 13 years with the Scots Fusiliers.

James Connolly,executed 12th May 1916, served a few years with a Scottish regiment.

Michael Malone who was killed in action during the Rising had a brother , William, serving with the Dublin Fusiliers killed in action at Mouse Trap Farm 1915.

Pacifist Francis-Sheehy-Skeffington murdered by Captain Bowen-Colthurst of the Irish Rifles ,a crime he was later convicted of, had two brother-in-laws serving as officers in the Dublin Fusiliers. One of them Thomas Kettle killed in action. Thomas Kettle , a member of the Irish Volunteers , was in Belguim at the start of the war supposed to be trying to buy weapons for the Irish Volunteers .

Ernie O'Malley , who did not take a full part in the Rising bit as far as i know took some shots at some soldiers had a brother in the Dublin Fusiliers.

Lieut. Gerald Neilan of the 10th Dublin Fusiliers shot by a sniper during the Easter Rising . His brother fought in the rising and was transported to Knutsford detention barracks. Both brothers are buried in the same grave in Glasnevin Cemetry in Dublin.

The Easter Rising and the Irish War of Independence are not straight forward.

[Murrough]

Again, I quibble, the Civil War started when the War of Independence ended. According to my History Professor at London Uni.

That would be the second civil war

[BrendanLee]

The Irish Civil War begins with the murder of Constable O'Brien outside Dublin Castle on Easter Week 1916, Irish Nationalism always tries to draw distinction between the 2 but it was always a Civil War, brother against brother, neighbour against neighbour. The point is that in countries like Russia Civil War was inevitable as they were dictatorships where political reform was impossible without it. Ireland was a free and democratic society, where peaceful compromise and negotiation was possible. There was no need for Irish Republicanism to attack Irish Unionism except that they wanted to.

As for casualties, maybe, maybe not, I've heard the figure put at several thousand to under 1000

Surely the Civil War began in 1534

[jdoyle]

i see two of my works Blood on the Streets and Uncommon Valour have been recommended.

In March of this year I released 'Crossfire 1916 & The Battle for the Four Courts.' All my works deal with the combat of Easter week broken down into invidual battles. This makes for easier reading and they come with a good map. For those of you interested come to Dublin and see the battlefields, they are all still there.

it is difficult to put number on the deaths of both sides.

picked up a copy of Crossfire at the shop in Glasnevin Cemetery last Wednesday. Interesting to see the notes re the use of the Guinness lorries/armoured personnel carriers.

[connaughtranger]

Ireland was a free and democratic society, where peaceful compromise and negotiation was possible.

Bit like Hungary and Czechoslovakia then. "We'd like to rule ourselves, please"......"Oh look! There's a tank.....and another one....and another one!"

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

The "civil war" started the day Unionism formed the UVF,took up the german gun and defied the democratic will of the Irish people who wanted Home Rule.

Yes but Unionists feared that they would be persecuted and murdered by Irish Nationalists who would stab Britain in the back in wartime. And how right they were! The UVF never did jack all, never killed anyone before joining up en masse to fight the Germans in 1914 they were in many ways a body to just convince Asquith that they were serious. Your argument might have more weight if they were trying to forcefully keep all of Ireland in the Union but that would have been wrong

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

Again, I quibble, the Civil War started when the War of Independence ended. According to my History Professor at London Uni.

And that should change. We used to refer to the English Civil War but now historians refer to the War of the Three Kingdoms as it involves Scotland and Ireland too

There are many books about the Easter Rising in Dublin 1916 , some are better than others and sometimes its a matter of reading many books to get to the trurh of the matter which means reading the bad ones aswell.

One of the posters said above that the Civil War started when Constable O'Brien was shot at St. Stephens Green in Dublin, which is a couple of years late in my opinion. It started with the forming and arming , with German guns , of the UVF. It was only later that the Irish Volunteers was formed. It was only the start of WW1 that stoped these two groups fighting each other in the streets an fields of Ireland.

The Rising was put down by Irish Regiments , mostly , and this was brother fighting brother. Many members of the Irish Volunteers joined the British army. This is what makes Irish history hard to understand especially to non-Irish , no offence intended.

Eamonn Ceannt one of the leaders of the Rising, executed 8th My 1916, had a brother William in the Dublin Fusiliers killed in action in WW1.

The father of Thomas Clarke ,executed 3rd May 1916 ,one of the leaders of the Rising served many years in the British Army.

Michael Mallin ,executed 8th may 1916, served 13 years with the Scots Fusiliers.

James Connolly,executed 12th May 1916, served a few years with a Scottish regiment.

Michael Malone who was killed in action during the Rising had a brother , William, serving with the Dublin Fusiliers killed in action at Mouse Trap Farm 1915.

Pacifist Francis-Sheehy-Skeffington murdered by Captain Bowen-Colthurst of the Irish Rifles ,a crime he was later convicted of, had two brother-in-laws serving as officers in the Dublin Fusiliers. One of them Thomas Kettle killed in action. Thomas Kettle , a member of the Irish Volunteers , was in Belguim at the start of the war supposed to be trying to buy weapons for the Irish Volunteers .

Ernie O'Malley , who did not take a full part in the Rising bit as far as i know took some shots at some soldiers had a brother in the Dublin Fusiliers.

Lieut. Gerald Neilan of the 10th Dublin Fusiliers shot by a sniper during the Easter Rising . His brother fought in the rising and was transported to Knutsford detention barracks. Both brothers are buried in the same grave in Glasnevin Cemetry in Dublin.

The Easter Rising and the Irish War of Independence are not straight forward.

Thank you, that's great, it really was brother against brother

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

Bit like Hungary and Czechoslovakia then. "We'd like to rule ourselves, please"......"Oh look! There's a tank.....and another one....and another one!"

We always did rule ourselves. And taking your argument to its' logical conclusion if Southern Ireland can break away from the rest of the British Isles then surely Northern Ireland can break away from the rest Ireland?

Surely the Civil War began in 1534

Honestly, we were probably fighting before that

[wig]

you ought to read Paul O'Brien's book Blood on the Streets as it has a lengthy discussion on British tactics during the rising.

Reviewed here: http://wp.me/p259Gc-9b

And if you don't read Max Caufields book you will miss a real treasure

[BrendanLee]

We always did rule ourselves. And taking your argument to its' logical conclusion if Southern Ireland can break away from the rest of the British Isles then surely Northern Ireland can break away from the rest Ireland?

Honestly, we were probably fighting before that

Yes, if geographical location determined political persuasion you would be correct but I am afraid the rest of the World would disagree with you. As for your second point it would depend on your definition of Civil War, if you use the accepted definition then I think 1534 would be correct but if you are making up you own definition then you could pick any date you like but again you would be at odds with the rest of the World.

[mikebriggs]

David

I have the 2/5th, 2/6th and 2/7th Sherwood Foresters War Histories which provide some good detail to the actual fighting, can provide scans/photocopies if you are interested.

I also agree with wig in that Paul's two books on the subject are very well researched and contain great detail (and a good read too!)

Mike

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

Yes, if geographical location determined political persuasion you would be correct but I am afraid the rest of the World would disagree with you. As for your second point it would depend on your definition of Civil War, if you use the accepted definition then I think 1534 would be correct but if you are making up you own definition then you could pick any date you like but again you would be at odds with the rest of the World.

Point is people believe it when it works in their favour but don't when it doesn't and that's true world over. And you should come to Londonderry, plenty of people agree with me. Irish Nationalists believe Ireland should be one and indivisible, Irish Unionists agree but believe the same of the British Isles.

1534 is an arbitary date, you could always go back to the Normans, Vikings, Gaels, just pick your period. But now it's all over, no more Constable O'Briens, Colonel Smyths, Gunner Curtis