Unknown Cartridge

[Willywombat]

Can anyone identify the round pictured here that was found on the Somme?

It seems to have the same case dimensions as a standard .303 (shown here underneath a rather corroded example of a standard .303) but has a much narrower neck. Second picture shows the base markings.

Many thanks

Bob.

[auchonvillerssomme]

yes it was the detonator for 'Toffee Apple' mortar.

[auchonvillerssomme]

1.

[Andrew Upton]

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114822

[auchonvillerssomme]

hey thats the thread that taught me everything i know about the subject.

[Willywombat]

Fantastic! Many thanks to all of you.

If anyone fancies hopping over to the 'equipment' section, I've posted another query on there (ref a holster).

[Ogilwy]

_{I hope the detonator is not now residing in Britain? If it is then you need to contact the authorities immediatly. Detonators are always senstive even when new, after nearly a hundred years they can be positively leathal. This is the reason that det's of that age are always disposed of straight away by us and handled as little as possible - if at all.}

_{PM me if you wish off line advice.}

_Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

Whilst I agree that live stuff shouldn't be brought back or kept in the UK, Im intirigued, why would, Bob's 'detonator' be anymore dangerous than the apparent live round?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I'm sure you weren't but just in case you were talking about mine.

[Old Tom]

Interesting topic. First may I admit I know next to nothing about the WW1 2" mortar. However, I wonder if the item shown is actually a detonator. I looks as if it it was fired by a stricker pin (i.e. like the similar in appearance rifle cartridge). If this was the case this object would be as dangerous, or otherwise, as an unfired cartridge. Or have I got this all wrong?

Old Tom

[centurion]

The toffee apple had a variety of fuzes but at least one did have a cartridge style detonator. The ones used in large numbers as anti tank mines certainly did

[auchonvillerssomme]

The cartridge was fired by the small pin on the raised centre of the cover in my post 3. It fired on impact and exploded the 'toffee apple'. The cast and machined 'fuze' is a solid lump, purely designed and made to contain the cartridge and with raised sections that the cover clips on to. The cartridges, fired and unfired aren't rare, in fact in the ploughed field area adjacent to White City at Beaumont Hamel you will find hundreds of unfired examples, these were dispersed a few years back when a plough brought up a couple of boxes of them.

[auchonvillerssomme]

To find a cover/firer is unusual but the other parts can be found in varying states, I only have these 2 now, I donated the rest of my Toffee Apple items (including the Toffee Apple) to the Ulster Tower museum when I sold up the French house and didn't fancy any discussions at the customs, even though there isn't a trace of the explody stuff.

[Ogilwy]

AVS,

Complete agreement on the identification. we found load of them in Thiepval when we dug the 2" position. The difference between a normal SAA and a detonator is that normal SAA if the cap composition senstizes then at worsrt a round of SAA fuctions to some degree outside of the weapon. With a detonator it is often Lead Azide or a similarly dodgy substance that when in contact with copper for nigh on 100 Yrs either sensitizes or even detonates. Copper Azide was not even used as a detonator as it was too sensitive and that is what can be created by this contact. Very little in this life scares me but 100 yr old detonators do! That is why the .303 takes a back seat to the potentially lethal 2" det.

Where ever this is if it has not been handed or reported to the correct authorities then it needs to be. We always advocate the safe and responsible way and this is it.

Regards,

Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thank you Rod, I have never heard of Lead Azide being used in these before, I have seen reference to exploding bullets and other types of detonators, but I was under the impression (obviously mistaken) that it was a product used post WW1. What references are there, the publications I have only discuss Fof M and the usual explosive suspects in relation to detonation.

Mick

[Ogilwy]

Mick,

F of M is no better, actually worse in many respects. I would have to check at work for the exact filling for these, I know Lead Azide was around as there was a particularly nasty accident when an item containing it had created Copper Azide and had a Figure of Insensitivity of less than 10 (TNT is 100 and an average detonator in the 30's) that became touch sensitive and unfortunately functioned.

Even the Demineur blow dets from that period on sight, and as you know they'll move just about anything.

Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

Secret is don't touch or prod anything. As an aside, years back a farmer near Bouzincourt was killed, thrown from his horse whcih was spooked after standing on and exploding a cartridge.

[Ogilwy]

we had an injury on Salisbury plain in exactly the same circumstances and have all been saying "well it's a one off" for the past few years! Well I'll be damned!!!!!!!

Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

Never say never. When I was at school, 38 years ago, we came into possesion of a large number of 1 1/4 inch nuts and bolts, great fun easing the heads off swan vesta matches filling the nut and screwing in a bolt from each end and throwing it causing a large explosion.

My friend managed to squeeze a couple of .22 blanks in and filled the gap with carefully crushed match heads, he blew the plate glass window out of the off licence and put a neat hole in the window of the chippie and a rougher one through the plasterboard back wall. I think because the damage appeared to be out of proportion to what we were doing we weren't the immediate suspects.

[Ogilwy]

You should have been an ATO! Some dubious history like that was a requirement when I joined!

Rod

[auchonvillerssomme]

No, you have my greatest respect (I might not always show it so don't tell anyone), in 1981 I saw what had happened to one of your civvy colleagues and plenty of other innocent victims, Watched several at work and have had the privilige of attending lectures by a couple of others. Not for me.

[Ogilwy]

I was a young Cpl, and had just been lectured by Ken and a couple of others not long before the incident. It looks like my getting ready for retirement may have been premature! There now looks like a chance of teaching the job but in uniform for another few years! Well I can only hope.

Rod

[RodB]

This looks like the relevant diagram :

[TonyE]

That RL drawing is not of the same type of cartridge as originally posted.

As you can see, there is nothing in the igniter other than F.G. black powder and a short length of Bickford fuze. The igniter was used when a short delay was required and the detonator when instantaneous ignition was required. It is the detonator that is half full of lead azide that is the nasty item.

There are a considerable number of igniters and detonators based on the .303 case, used in rifle grenades and trench mortars as well as propulsive cartridges for trench mortars. They are very difficult to identify correctly but I believe the item in question is neither an igniter nor detonator but a propulsive cartridge for the toffee apple. One of my reasons for saying this is that if the fired example Mick shows had been a detonator it would no longer look like it does. However i would be glad to be corrected if anyone knows better.

Whilst strongly agreeing with all the caveats about picking up unexploded ordnance, from the point of view of accurate identification there is a lot of difference between an igniter containing black powder and a detonator full of lead azide.

Regards

TonyE

[auchonvillerssomme]

I agree about the propulsive cartridge v igniter, I think we have had a discussion before, the problem is the context in which the items above were found, together. Your question about the lack of damage to the fired one could be that it was a misfire, it is certainly empty now and I give stuff a bit of clean and don't remember anything of significance about this one.

Mick