M1917 Rifles

[IRC Kevin]

The only white tip rounds in British service up to 1975 were the Tracers G Mark IV and VI, both of which saw little if any use after WW2.

In the 1980s, long after regular .303 drill rounds had run out the MoD purchased a batch of Italian made drill rounds for the cadets and these had white tips.

Since you say this was allegedly captured from the enemy (?) I would be intrigued to know what it was. There was certainly no sniper quality ball of any type officially issued for the No.4T.

Regards

TonyE

You've got me wondering if the ravages of time haven't affected my memory now and it was 'white spot' rather than 'white tip'? Rounds were not standard issue and were part of a large consignment which had been captured from the opposition- I remember that clearly and think that they were boxed 10 (?) a time, in non-military packaging.

[Gunner Bailey]

Sorry, but I am with Chris on this one. Even in 1947/8 I doubt if there were any MLEs left in the inventory, even in the back of the deepest stores at Donnington. Unfortunately veterans are notorious for mis-remembering things about their service.

In any case, even though an MLE had a couple of inches longer barrel it had poor sights relative to a regular No.4 and was no comparison to a No.4T. They would both have been using the same ammo anyway.

Thanks,

TonyE

Tony, I did quiz him as to whether they were SMLE's or MLE and he was adament they were MLE. Please don't shoot the messenger!

John

[shippingsteel]

The US entry into the war and the chronic shortage of weapons caused by the massive increase in the size army coincided with the ending of the British contracts for the Pattern '14 so the design was reworked for the US .30-06 cartridge and became the Rifle US Model of 1917.

And it wasn't just the design of the rifle that was converted for American usage - the bayonets also saw some changes. The P1913 is virtually identical to the M1917 and they remained interchangeable. (The only thing the Americans modified with the bayonet, was to add the clearance hole in the pommel, which was previously lacking on the P1913 model)

However many of the bayonets remaining in stock at the end of the British contract were taken into US service for use with the newly made M1917 rifles, and subsequently overstamped with a US mark.

These were produced around August/September 1917 and many of this batch went straight into service with the Doughboys, unlike the rest of the British P1913's which predominantly sat it out in stores.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

This bayonet shown is one of those early 'hard-used' examples, that clearly displays the 'hatching-out' of the British inspection marks and the extra US stamp which was added.

Also note date of manufacture at the Remington plant, being September 1917, which coincides with the period of transition where they were switching production to the M1917.

Cheers, S>S

[Terrylee]

Here is a Pattern 1913 Rifle (P.13) from which the P.14 and M.17 were developed. 1201 of these rifles were manufactured for troop trials of which this example is No. 825. It was thus probably manufactured in late 1912. Documents in the South African Military Archives indicate that plans were being made to receive a small batch of these rifles to test under South African conditions. However, a final letter from the UK indicates that the ammunition was still under development............... And then came the First World War!

This rifle did not originate in South africa and despite what has been stated by certain writers I have found no evidence that the batch requested was ever sent to South Africa.

[MikB]

On the question of accuracy it is interesting to see how this was perceived by target shooters. The P.'14 was always considered a short range rifle and was generally used up to 600 yards. In the 50s and 60s if one shot "over the hill" at Bisley (i.e 900 to 1200 yards) then the only rifle to use was an SMLE, usually regulated by Fulton. These won the King and Queen's prizes for many years. I used to shoot a heavy barrelled SMLE myself for long range.

TonyE

I've heard the same. Nevertheless, I think I've seen far more P14 derivatives on TR ranges than SMLEs and No.4s over the last couple of decades. Of course both have been eclipsed by more recent specialist designs in the most competitive shoots, but I think there are more P14-based club rifles left. Probably much of the reason for this is the better result of 7.62 conversion in the P14 and the excellent engineering of the original. Some of the No.4 conversions were cheapskate and many said the SMLE was too weak, though I can remember seeing one conversion in the late '60s that appeared successful - and I believe Ishapore continued making them in 7.62.

Regards,

MikB

[4thGordons]

I've heard the same. Nevertheless, I think I've seen far more P14 derivatives on TR ranges than SMLEs and No.4s over the last couple of decades. Of course both have been eclipsed by more recent specialist designs in the most competitive shoots, but I think there are more P14-based club rifles left. Probably much of the reason for this is the better result of 7.62 conversion in the P14 and the excellent engineering of the original. Some of the No.4 conversions were cheapskate and many said the SMLE was too weak, though I can remember seeing one conversion in the late '60s that appeared successful - and I believe Ishapore continued making them in 7.62.

Regards,

MikB

Indeed the P'14/M1917 action is very strong and is a favourite of gunsmiths (pro and shade-tree) in the US for conversion to all manner of calibres, in part because of numbers of M1917s produced meant that until recently M1917 actions were very cheap. A browse of any of the online auction sites in the US show all sorts of these conversions although 7.62 (.308) is an uncommon choice.

India did indeed produce the SMLE No1 in 7.62 between 1964 and 1968 (caveat I recently saw one example dated in the 70s). In this format it was known as the 7.62mm Rifle 2A or 2A1 ( the difference is minor largely related to the max sighting gradations on the rear sight) I have several of these and they are excellent rifles. Their condition once they reach the surplus market is usually externally rather rough but internally excellent. Mine are accurate reliable rifles.

Chris

[centurion]

I

India did indeed produce the SMLE No1 in 7.62 between 1964 and 1968 (caveat I recently saw one example dated in the 70s).

You could still buy counterfeit SMLEs in Lahore as late as 1990, I was offered one.

[4thGordons]

You could still buy counterfeit SMLEs in Lahore as late as 1990, I was offered one.

"Kyber pass" copies are still being produced and many are making their way back to the US via Afghanistan.

I'm talking about official production at Ishapore. The received wisdom on production is :

No1Mk3* in .303 up until @1964

7.62mm 2A-2A1 between 1964-1968 (as I said I recently saw one dated 1972)

No1Mk3* in 303 between 1970-74?

No1Mk3* in .303 (probably assembled from left over bits) from 1985-1988

1988 appears to be the last year of production of the No1Mk3* in .303 -- 81 years after the MkIII was introduced and 72 after the MkIII* was introduced

Chris

[TonyE]

I've heard the same. Nevertheless, I think I've seen far more P14 derivatives on TR ranges than SMLEs and No.4s over the last couple of decades. Of course both have been eclipsed by more recent specialist designs in the most competitive shoots, but I think there are more P14-based club rifles left. Probably much of the reason for this is the better result of 7.62 conversion in the P14 and the excellent engineering of the original. Some of the No.4 conversions were cheapskate and many said the SMLE was too weak, though I can remember seeing one conversion in the late '60s that appeared successful - and I believe Ishapore continued making them in 7.62.

Regards,

MikB

True Mik, but as you say, that is because the P.'14 is a Mauser action and very strong.

The short range use of the P.'14 applied to the original full stocked military rifle with a heavy nose cap. Once the action was converted, a cut down stock fitted with a full floating barrel it became a different matter entirely and it was good out to 1,000 yards. There are still plenty in use as club rifles today.

Regards

TonyE