M1917 Rifles

[shippingsteel]

Just stumbled across a few decent photos of the M1917 rifles being used, which I haven't seen around about that very much.?

Posting them here if anyone is interested. I will leave it to people more knowledgeable on these rifles to perhaps pass comment ...

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

The piled rifles in the second picture are M1903 Springfields.

According to the official statistical picture of "The War with Germany a statistical summary" (Ayres 1919)

"Begining with slightly less than 600,000 Springfields at the outbreak of the war, the total at the end of the warhad increased to nearly 900,000. The Enfields first came into production in August 1917. After their manufacture had actually begunthe output increased rapidly until it totalled at the end of the war in November, 1918, nearly 2,300,000." (Ayres 1919: 64)

It is generally accepted that more members of the AEF were armed with M1917s than M1903s.

Interestingly members of the 33rd Division who fought alongside the Australians at Hamel in July 1918 were armed with SMLEs.

Chris

[centurion]

Wasn't the M1917 "a conversion of the P.14 rifle........ to fit the .300 used by the Springfield model 1903"?

[bill24chev]

Wasn't the M1917 "a conversion of the P.14 rifle........ to fit the .300 used by the Springfield model 1903"?

I think you are right. Both P.14 & M1917 were issued to the Home Guard during round two (WW2). The M1917 had to be specialy marked to avoid loading with the British standard .303 round. Obviously their otuward appearance was very similer.

[4thGordons]

Wasn't the M1917 "a conversion of the P.14 rifle........ to fit the .300 used by the Springfield model 1903"?

Yes. The US entry into the war and the chronic shortage of weapons caused by the massive increase in the size army coincided with the ending of the British contracts for the Pattern '14 so the design was reworked for the US .30-06 cartridge and became the Rifle US Model of 1917.

Chris

[Khaki]

As Chris points out, a conversion of the design not of the rifle.

khaki

[N White]

I like my 1917, but I find shooting my Enfields to be hands down a more enjoyable and rewarding experience. The one thing the 1917 has going for it is weight... It's huge and heavy, and that does a nice job mitigating recoil.

[4thGordons]

Just so people can see what is being discussed:

(These are not to scale -- the rifles are the same size! OAL 46.25" )

Most obvious distinguishing characteristics (with all the usual caveats) - Pattern 14 rifles have - assymetrical (or no - eddystone stocks) grasping grooves in the forestock, provision for volley sights (often removed on surviving examples during refurbishment for WWII known as the Weedon Repair Stanard WRS) - and provision for unit disk.

Externally however, as pointed out, the rifles are very similar. The internal magazine, the magazine follower and the extractor all differ as required for the slightly longer, rimless US .30-06 round and the gradations on the rear sight differ to slightly to account for the slightly flatter shooting 30-06.

M1917 rifles in LDV/Home Guard service in WWII had a red stripe painted around them to identify them as .30-06

The Pattern 1913 / US M1917 bayonets used on these rifles are very similar to the Pattern 1907 bayonet for the SMLE (the blades are identical but the muzzle ring is higher) - to distinguish these types two grooves were cut in the wooden handle scales to provide a quick visual distingushing mark.

Chris

[N White]

The other interesting difference between the two is the increase in capacity for the 1917, .30-06 being slimmer than .303, it held 6 not 5.

[Gunner Bailey]

I shot one of these (a 1914) last year, rechambered for 7.62 and it was brilliant to shoot and a wonderful rifle. If they had put a 10 round mag on it I think the British Army would have had to think seriously about their rifles. On the same day I shot a 1918 dated SMLE (completely original) and the P14 was more accurate by about 25% although the SMLE feels better and has a much better bolt action.

John

[TonyE]

The Pattern '14 rifles are indeed extremely accurate. Mine has its original barrel and still shoots far better than I can. Having said that, my SMLE (1918 Enfield with 1944 Lithgow barrel) is pretty good too.

It is very unlikely that Britain would have adopted the P.'14 in .303 inch calibre, whether with a five or ten round magazine, because the whole point of the exercise was to find a better round than the .303. It was a combination of problems with the ammunition and the outbreak of WWI that prevented the eventual adoption of the .276 inch round and then when the subject was revisited in the 1930s and plans were being made to adopt a new rifle based on the P.'13/'14 design in a new calibre, WW2 came along and repeated history.

The calibre to be adopted in the late 1930s was never settled as experimental rounds were trialled in .256, .276, 7.92mm and .303 inch rimless. The main criteria was the armour-piercing performance and many designs of AP bullet were prepared.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

A 1940 analysis of the SMLE and the P14/Model 1917 concludes that the latter are

"more accurate, apparently owing to the design of the bolt which has locking lugs in the front instead of towards the rear end of the bolt. It is less easy to clean and is not so suitable for rapid firing as the SMLE. Its increased accuracy makes it more suitable for use as a sniping rifle. It is made to be fitted with a telescopic sight for sniping purposes."

The smaller magazine capacity (5 rounds) might also have been an issue and also the fact that it was a pound heavier than the SMLE [the extra 2 inches in length was probably neither here nor there].

[TonyE]

That 1940 analysis is little different from that produced in 1916, although where they got that part about being made to fit a telescopic sight I have no idea. They certainly were never made originally for a 'scope! In July 1940 Alex Martin of Glasgow was contracted to convert a small number of Pattern '14 rifles (421) to sniper configuration and fitted a variety of WWI telescopic sights that had been kept in government store, but this required a fair amount of gunsmaithing. These were mostly Aldis sights with a few PPCo. and Watts. The "new" P.'14 sniper was formally approved in late 1941.

On the question of accuracy it is interesting to see how this was perceived by target shooters. The P.'14 was always considered a short range rifle and was generally used up to 600 yards. In the 50s and 60s if one shot "over the hill" at Bisley (i.e 900 to 1200 yards) then the only rifle to use was an SMLE, usually regulated by Fulton. These won the King and Queen's prizes for many years. I used to shoot a heavy barrelled SMLE myself for long range.

At short range, particularly up to 300 yards the SMLE was thought to hollow group due to the harmonics of the barrel vibration and only at longer distances did this even out.

Regards

TonyE

[T8HANTS]

Is it a Bisley myth that scores went down after the introduction of the SMLE over the LLE and the target bull size had to be slightly enlarged to compensate. Scores did not match past efforts until the introduction of the No4 post 1945.

I have shot P14 and until I retired it just recently, a Parker regulated LLE. I prefered the LLE.

[TonyE]

It is certainly not a myth that the target shooting fraternity were very unhappy about the introduction of the SMLE and found it less accurate than the MLE but I don't know about the change in target size.

I will check with the guys at the NRA Museum in the week.

Regards

Tony

[Gunner Bailey]

It is certainly not a myth that the target shooting fraternity were very unhappy about the introduction of the SMLE and found it less accurate than the MLE but I don't know about the change in target size.

I will check with the guys at the NRA Museum in the week.

Regards

Tony

Here's a story for you Tony.

Last year I had a veteran in my shop who had served in Palestine. He said that the army were being sniped by Isreali's using Mausers at long range and the No 4 was not up to responding over the same distance. The answer was a crate of Long Lees were obtained in the UK and shipped out. These were given to British snipers to respond.

I've never seen that in print. Have you heard it before?

John

[4thGordons]

Here's a story for you Tony.

Last year I had a veteran in my shop who had served in Palestine. He said that the army were being sniped by Isreali's using Mausers at long range and the No 4 was not up to responding over the same distance. The answer was a crate of Long Lees were obtained in the UK and shipped out. These were given to British snipers to respond.

I've never seen that in print. Have you heard it before?

John

I suppose this is possible but I really rather doubt it.

A No4(T)or a No3(T) [P14 T] properly set up would be quite the match for any other rifle under usual conditions. The No4 -- so much so that versions of it (albeit chambered for 7.62 as the L42A1) remained in service up through the Falklands .

The more I think about it the less likely this seems.... but it does serve to bring the thread full circle. One of the things that prompted the intial development of the Pattern 13 and the proposed new, smaller calibre, higher velocity round, had been the apparent performance of Boer marksman with the 7mm Mauser (against.....yes - the MLM and MLE!) - the P13/14 is of course based on a (modified) mauser action.

Chris

[Gunner Bailey]

Chris,

I was surprised too but it was a first hand account from a regular serviceman who was there.

John

[centurion]

Chris,

I was surprised too but it was a first hand account from a regular serviceman who was there...................

.................over 60 years ago!

[IRC Kevin]

I suppose this is possible but I really rather doubt it.

A No4(T)or a No3(T) [P14 T} properly set up would be quite the match for any other rifle under usual conditions. The No4 -- so much so that versions of it (albeit chambered for 7.62 as the L42A1) remained in service up through the Falklands .

Chris

I was issued with a No. 4 (T) in 1975, complete with 'white-tip' .303 ammunition. Absolutely no issues with long-range accuracy whatsoever, although I never tried it above 800 yards, it was capable of hitting a fig 11 at that range.

[Gunner Bailey]

.................over 60 years ago!

Many of these guys are still as sharp as a tack. This man was very clear in his memory.

[TonyE]

Sorry, but I am with Chris on this one. Even in 1947/8 I doubt if there were any MLEs left in the inventory, even in the back of the deepest stores at Donnington. Unfortunately veterans are notorious for mis-remembering things about their service.

In any case, even though an MLE had a couple of inches longer barrel it had poor sights relative to a regular No.4 and was no comparison to a No.4T. They would both have been using the same ammo anyway.

IRC Kevin - can you explain a little more by what you mean by "white tip" ammo?

Thanks,

TonyE

[IRC Kevin]

Hi Tony,

The rounds had a white tip to them (similar to the red tip on tracer, only in white). We were told that this was a better quality round than the standard .303 issue and that the supply had been captured from the opposition and that HMG could only supply ordinary rounds. How true this was is anybody's guess, but I do know that serious competitive target shooters use special (more consistent and much expensive!) batches of ammunition instead of the cheaper rounds available from the same manufacturer, so presumably this was HMG's issue ammo for snipers in days gone past.

Regards,

Kevin

[TonyE]

The only white tip rounds in British service up to 1975 were the Tracers G Mark IV and VI, both of which saw little if any use after WW2.

In the 1980s, long after regular .303 drill rounds had run out the MoD purchased a batch of Italian made drill rounds for the cadets and these had white tips.

Since you say this was allegedly captured from the enemy (?) I would be intrigued to know what it was. There was certainly no sniper quality ball of any type officially issued for the No.4T.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Here's a story for you Tony.

Last year I had a veteran in my shop who had served in Palestine. He said that the army were being sniped by Isreali's using Mausers at long range and the No 4 was not up to responding over the same distance. The answer was a crate of Long Lees were obtained in the UK and shipped out. These were given to British snipers to respond.

I've never seen that in print. Have you heard it before?

John

The main incident involving snipers in any number was on April 20th 1948. 40 Commando was in charge of evacuation activities at Haifa when a sustained sniper attack was mounted on them from many positions in the port using Bren guns. One soldier and 2 policemen appear to have been wounded. Sniper positions were identified and five snipers were killed using a Staghound armoured car and its 38mm gun