4thGordons Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 I just got hold of an example of a less commonly seen Great War rifle a Greek M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 6.5mm. It is not a great example (missing a couple of bits) but is the first one I have seen that even approximates one I could afford. Most of the markings are illegible because of corrosion on the receiver but the bore is suprisingly good given this - however I know so little about these rifles I do not think I will be firing it until I have it professionally checked. It is missing the cleaning rod and possibly the handguard although it appears that it depends which model it is and I am not entirely certain! It is also missing the sprung button for the rear sight. I suspect these will be a challenge to replace but as I said, the only other examples of this particular rifle I have seen were way out of my price league. Some variants appear to have had a stacking-bar but there is no obvious provision for one on the front band here. The two contenders for model are the M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer and the M1903/14 version of the same rifle. I am still wading through conflicting descriptions and the absence of markings does not help! The rifle has several interesting features - most obvious being the design of the foresight Less obvious/visible but perhaps more unique - the rifle has an internal, 5 round rotary or "spool" magazine - which although complex is apparently very reliable. The rounds are stripped down into the magazine but instead of being held in a vertical column and pushed up in a straight line by the spring they are rotated into the action. This requires quite a complicated spring but most accounts I have read suggest it worked very well (Something similar is used on the magazine for the several modern ruger rifles, I have used the 10-22 (.22) which works flawlessly) Although several versions of this rifle served in the Greek Army all the way up to WWII, some numbers were apparently also used by the Austro-Hungarian army - the rifle was produced by Steyr and the Austro-Hungarian used rifles were apparently commandeered in 1914 along with undelivered ammunition. This means there are a number of options as far as bayonets go so I need to investigate these more fully. Anyway, perhaps a less commonly seen Great War rifle. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 Nice find! I can believe that the rifle is an uncommon find, but even rarer is the correct original unaltered bayonet for it, an example of which I do just happen to have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 The two contenders for model are the M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer and the M1903/14 version of the same rifle ... Without seeing the markings on the receiver and in the absence of any handguard it will be virtually impossible to tell them apart. They are the same except for the full length guard. I think you will have to settle for "Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer Y1903", although those grasping grooves are the oddest shape, very unusual - I've never seen anything like it before. Hold on a minute, I HAVE seen that before - on this photo which I found earlier regarding Trajan's short bayonet, these being the original Y1903 with partial guard and stacking hook. EDIT. Upon closer inspection, what I thought were stacking hooks in this photo may just be the cleaning rods, its a little hard to tell. Apparently the original Y1903 had no hooks fitted. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 Great find. A unique foresight possibly. I've not seen the like of that. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 Great find. A unique foresight possibly. I've not seen the like of that. I think this ones probably been rebarrelled at some stage (which might explain the better condition the bore is found in) That sight is found on later models. I dug up this photo from a later period Greek M-S carbine (from the 30's era) which shows the sight on the left, alongside the original rifle for a comparison. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 May , 2012 Share Posted 19 May , 2012 Here are some clearer shots of the foresight protector thats found on the Mannlicher Schonauer '1930 System' variant of the Greek Y1903/14 rifle. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2012 Share Posted 20 May , 2012 ...grasping grooves are the oddest shape... And pray, siree, for the less well-informed, what is a 'grasping groove'???!!! Şerefe! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 20 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2012 The "grasping groves" are the depressions running along the forestock approximately where one's left hand would fall when holding and aiming the rifle (aka "finger groves" etc) These are designed to allow the weapon to be held more firmly. The grooves on this rifle are L shaped (coming down and then turning towards the front of the rifle. On most Mausers etc where similar grooves are present (also P14 and M1917 etc) they are simply grooves without the vertical. The Pattern 13 rifle has interesting separate ovals cut as though one were for each finger. The only explanation I can think of for this additional inletting is to make it easier to remove the upper handguard (missing on mine) by allowing you to get your fingers under it but I have no idea if this the official explanation. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 May , 2012 Share Posted 20 May , 2012 The only explanation I can think of for this additional inletting is to make it easier to remove the upper handguard (missing on mine) by allowing you to get your fingers under it but I have no idea if this the official explanation. I gather that is exactly why it was designed that way, to help remove the guard. The later 1903/14 version had what they called 'simplified' grooves - just a standard furrow in a straight line. From what I have found there are the 3 differences to tell the rifles apart - the grasping groove, the stacking hook and the handguard (The 1903/14 had them straight, added and full-length) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 20 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2012 There seems to be quite a lot of conflicting information online on the various models however I think the three points you have indentified would place mine as the 1903 The L-shaped grooves - 1903 Absence of stacking hook provision - 1903 No gap for fitting full-length handguard under front band - 1903 Which leaves the anomoly of the foresight protector. I have not yet been able to establish when these were added. They certainly seem to be universal on the 1903/14/30 but it is not clear to me if they were also added earlier or retro-fitted in rebuilds. As this type of rifle continued in Greek service through WWII (including with partisans in Greece) and into the civil war post WWII it would suprise me if there were not all sorts of minor variations and combinations much like the Italian Carcano rifles, which make Enfields look logical and straighforward! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2012 Share Posted 20 May , 2012 ... The "grasping groves" are the depressions running along the forestock approximately where one's left hand would fall when holding and aiming the rifle (aka "finger groves" etc)... Ta! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 Hi Chris, found this thread again whilst doing some research into this rifle, and wondered how you got on with it. Did you eventually get it all worked out.? Anyway I ran across this drawing of the original model rifle and carbine which I thought you might be interested in seeing. (Ball's Mauser MROTW p.399) For others benefit, this is the Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer Y1903 as made by OEWG in Steyr. The carbine version at top with turned down bolt handle. And original rifle version at bottom with partial handguard, 'special' grasping grooves, clearing rod (no stacking hook) and the unprotected blade foresight. Also showing the special Y1903 knife bayonet, which was closely based on the Austrian M95 bayonet, but with a slightly smaller & higher set muzzle ring. I recently happened to stumble across one of these unmodified bayonets, which is why I was researching the rifle. Apparently quite scarce in original form. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 Also showing the special Y1903 knife bayonet, which was closely based on the Austrian M95 bayonet, but with a slightly smaller & higher set muzzle ring. I recently happened to stumble across one of these unmodified bayonets, which is why I was researching the rifle. Apparently quite scarce in original form. Well done! They are indeed rare finds - in unconverted state! Also rare to find with original scabbards... I have managed to get three unconverted examples so far, all stumbled across in the local antika pazari - one not so good (but better than a fourth example I saw in the summer), and I illustrate and describe two of them here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209495&hl=y1903 As noted there, very few were made and many were later converted to fit Bulgarian M95's - which is why they are so rare... In fact until I happened across my Luxembourg M.1900, I considered these my rarest finds, rarer even that the old 1907 HQ! Looking forward to seeing a photograph of yours - and even better if you add it to the existing thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 So I guess this is what you would call a "less commonly seen Great War Bayonet". And I just happened to come across this one over the holiday period ...OOPS. Yes, I broke my own self-imposed embargo on looking at bayonets over the holidays ... and sneaked a quick peak on Boxing Day evening, and this is what I found. Very similar to the everyday Austrian M1895. But with a St.George and the Dragon symbol stamped on the pommel and that letter G shown stamped on the ricasso. And the very unique placing of the serial number on the crossguard. It is the crossguard which was always replaced when these bayonets were later being reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 So I guess this is what you would call a "less commonly seen Great War Bayonet". And I just happened to come across this one over the holiday period ...OOPS. And the very unique placing of the serial number on the crossguard. It is the crossguard which was always replaced when these bayonets were later being reworked. Well done cobber! So, this is the first one you have ever seen? And I have only been able to track down about five or so other examples? So, indeed yes, 'less commonly seen' applies! Out of interest, what is the serial number? Trajan PS: Before the grammar police come along - "A thing is unique (the only one of its kind) or it is not. Something may be almost unique (there are very few like it), but nothing is “very unique.”" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2014 Share Posted 31 December , 2014 This means there are a number of options as far as bayonets go so I need to investigate these more fully. Aside from the short Y1903, I do believe that the T-backed Y 1903/1914 will fit - see my thread at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=210221&hl=y1903 Also what I have termed the Y 1878/1903/1914 bayonet, a Greek 1878 'Gras' converted to fit the MS rifle, should fit - see my thread at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208744&hl= Incidentally Chris, there is quite a bit on these rifles on GBF - you might want to have a look around there for further details. EDIT: I assume that the post WW1 Italian made versions of the Y 1914 will also fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 There seems to be quite a lot of conflicting information online on the various models however I think the three points you have indentified would place mine as the 1903 Chris, I have posted this note elsewhere but just in case you didn't see it, well - how is your Greek? THE book for Greek rifles and bayonets is: Christos Sazanidis, Τα Οπλα Τον Ηλλίνον (Ta opla ton Ellinon = Arms of the Greeks), Maiandros, Thessaloniki (1995), ISBN 960-90213-0-01. It has a short English summary and IIRC captions in Greek and English for the very poor photographs... And has a bunch of detail on those MS rifles - according to my notes on pp. 197-212. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwsleser Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 This is my Y1903/14 rifle. It is a Steyr made in 1911, so was originally built as a Y1903. All the parts are Steyr marked (no Breda parts). As one can see in the photos, it has the front sight protector. 4thGordons They certainly seem to be universal on the 1903/14/30 but it is not clear to me if they were also added earlier or retro-fitted in rebuilds. Agreed. From examining as many photos as I can find, I feel the sight protector is quite uncommon on rifles. Pista! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 Well done Chris, A rare find for sure, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 Now all you need Jeff is the right bayonet.... The Y1903 is slightly easier to come by than an original (non-Italian) Y1914... And both are hard to find with the original scabbards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeB Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 Something that is also interesting about this rifle and has been left out of the conversation is the caliber itself. These rifles were chambered in the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer RIMLESS, sometimes referred to as 6.5x53.5mm. This cartridge should not be confused with the 6.5x54 Dutch Mannlicher RIMMED cartridge. Today, one often finds these 6.5mm Greek cartridge in the civilian hunting version. They became very popular with European and American hunters. In fact, this cartridge although, relative speaking, small caliber was actually used to hunt elephants in Africa by the famous British big game hunter W.D.M. Bell. He perfected the "brain shot" to kill elephants with this cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 Something that is also interesting about this rifle and has been left out of the conversation is the caliber itself. These rifles were chambered in the 6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer RIMLESS, sometimes referred to as 6.5x53.5mm. This cartridge should not be confused with the 6.5x54 Dutch Mannlicher RIMMED cartridge. Today, one often finds these 6.5mm Greek cartridge in the civilian hunting version. They became very popular with European and American hunters. In fact, this cartridge although, relative speaking, small caliber was actually used to hunt elephants in Africa by the famous British big game hunter W.D.M. Bell. He perfected the "brain shot" to kill elephants with this cartridge. Apologies for going off topic, but just couldn't help myself. Lee Harvey Oswald used 6.5mm... or did he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwsleser Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 I actually have a Gnutti made Greek bayonet and scabbard (ordered with the 1927 purchase from Breda). My interest in the rifle was originally focused on WW2, but I have been reseaching Greece's participation in WW1. As my rifle is a Steyr, I have begun searching for a Steyr bayonet to go with it. As has been stated, not a easy item to find (especially unmodified). This is my Greek WW2 equipment display. The basic field gear is the same as used in WW1, but the canteen, E-tool, and helmet as later designs. Pista! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 August , 2015 Share Posted 12 August , 2015 The other Greek bayonet that would fit this would be the modified version of the Greek Steyr-made 'Gras' type, the Greek Y1878 - see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=208744. Also not an easy find outside of this region... Note that after Greece declared neutrality in 1914, most of the Y1914 bayonets, which were being made by Simpson of Suhl for the M-S. Y1903/14 rifle, were requistioned and re-hilted to fit the Gew.98 and then went to Bavaria. Actually, to be honest, off-hand I can't recall seeing an actual Greek-issued example of one of these bayonets illustrated in the literature and sources available to me, although the same literature and sources imply that examples do exist, and so I do wonder if they all went to Bavaria? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 12 August , 2015 Share Posted 12 August , 2015 (edited) Very nice indeed. Are those foresight protectors unique only to the Greek versions? (are they manufactured in Greece or made under contract?) I have come across many Mannlicher variants and have never seen that style before, or a Greek version for that matter. Regards Edited 12 August , 2015 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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