saw119 Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 This photo was posted on another, local history, forum and I offered to post it on here to get some expert opinion on it. The original poster believes it to be a photo of the 4th (Reserve) Btn. Yorks & Lancs of which his Great Grandfather, Thomas Butler, was a member. This unit started as the territorial 3/4 Btn. who supplied some drafts to the 1/4th and 2/4th Y & L and were renamed the 4th in April 1916. However, does anyone have any more info on this photo; cap badges, uniforms etc? I notice some of the men have black buttons on their tunics and I thought that meant something but uniforms not really a strong point for me. Anything observations at all, no matter how small, would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 Not sure if you've noticed or not but the Hut has ?/4 YL stencilled to the front which should provide pretty good corroboration of the photo and its subjects. Tunics look like a mixture of SD and Economy issue to me with central figure sporting a Lewis Gunners badge. Black buttons normally indicate a Rifle battalion although I believe some L.I units wore them. Nothing to indicate that the cap badge is any other than the 'Cat and Cabbage' sported by the Y&L. Shoulder titles look to be in the T followed by Battn No followed by Regt format, all of which ties in rather nicely. Regards Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 I like photos like this--too bad on the creases. To add to what Suddery has said--The dark Buttons in this case are almost certainly leather buttons. These were pressed leather with the Royal arms relief. This type of button was introduced early in the war to supplement brass and are actually fairly commonly seen. They were used on the Simplified Jackets (no pleats on the Breast pockets and also on normal SD Jackets--which looks like the case here. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwp2007 Posted 4 May , 2012 Share Posted 4 May , 2012 wonder if the picture may be taken at Rugeley camp on cannock chase,the 4th reserve york and lancasters were there from october 1917 to 23rd july 1918, regards, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 5 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2012 From what I understand the photo was taken at Clipstone when they were stationed there. The evidence seems to suggest that it was taken after they became the 4th so sometime after April 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 May , 2012 Share Posted 5 May , 2012 Old chestnut here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 6 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2012 Well, I have to say I had no idea it had already been posted. It was posted on the Sheffield History forum a few weeks ago. Wonder if it's the same person doing the posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 Well, I have to say I had no idea it had already been posted. It was posted on the Sheffield History forum a few weeks ago. Wonder if it's the same person doing the posting? I had tried a few forums...... but my last questioned was not answered up until you reposted it on here, where suddery answered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 I just rescanned it today and funnily enough there is a date, but didnt notice it at first as it was stamped. ~ 27 Jul 1915? Have a look https://www.dropbox.com/s/dg65md7wgbc2oju/07-05-2012%2015%3B44%3B02.JPG https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xeu5jblz64a0uw/07-05-2012%2015%3B44%3B022.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 so the 4th Battalion were the Hallamshires? As it does match, as my great grandfather lived in sheffield so this is where he signed up. makes sense. I just found the war diary for and the dates 1915 april to the feb 1922, add up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 7 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2012 No, the 1/4 Btn. is the Hallamshires and you said your G Grandfather was in the 3/4 Btn. The 3/4 was a reserve Btn. stationed only in England and didn't see active service overseas unless he was part of a draft sent out to replace injured or dead servicemen. It was later renamed the 4th Reserve Btn. but should not be confused with the Hallamshires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 ok so, the story was he was hit by mustard gas so he must have been out somewhere in the fields. I am not sure if he transferred as his service record is missing or they spelt his name wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 7 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2012 Even if his name was misspelt a medal card should not be that difficult to find. You know his name and his regiment. Also, was he killed or wounded? If killed his name will be registered on the CWGC and if wounded he may have been invalided out of the army and his name will be on the Silver War Badge list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 Even if his name was misspelt a medal card should not be that difficult to find. You know his name and his regiment. Also, was he killed or wounded? If killed his name will be registered on the CWGC and if wounded he may have been invalided out of the army and his name will be on the Silver War Badge list. yes I have his medal card. silver war badge list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 7 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2012 http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/swb.htm If he was awarded one it will say on his MIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 7 May , 2012 Share Posted 7 May , 2012 http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/swb.htm If he was awarded one it will say on his MIC. His name was Thomas Butler Born 1892, Y&L Reg no. 45371 (from marriage certificate) He was in the East Lancs Regiment Reg no. 31224 - he had the victory and british medals, but not the star. (MIC), cannot find a SWB or I cannot find any records other than that of the marriage certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 8 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2012 That just raises an awful lot of questions. Let's see if we can answer any. First off, do you know which of the men in your pic is your G Grandad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 8 May , 2012 Share Posted 8 May , 2012 That just raises an awful lot of questions. Let's see if we can answer any. First off, do you know which of the men in your pic is your G Grandad? the guy with the LG in the middle. This is another pic of him. which may unravel other clues. Which I think is taken later. https://www.dropbox....1a/IMG_1484.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 8 May , 2012 Share Posted 8 May , 2012 the guy with the LG in the middle. This is another pic of him. which may unravel other clues. Which I think is taken later. https://www.dropbox....1a/IMG_1484.JPG Yes, it has to be a (probably very early) post-war photo, as he has the ribbands up for the BWM and VM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 8 May , 2012 Share Posted 8 May , 2012 Yes, it has to be a (probably very early) post-war photo, as he has the ribbands up for the BWM and VM. what do the two stripes mean on his sleeve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 8 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2012 The two stripes mean Corporal. This means he was in charge of a section of soldiers. It is the next step up for non-comissioned officers after Lance Corporal but before Sergeant. What rank does his MIC state he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 8 May , 2012 Share Posted 8 May , 2012 The two stripes mean Corporal. This means he was in charge of a section of soldiers. It is the next step up for non-comissioned officers after Lance Corporal but before Sergeant. What rank does his MIC state he is? MIC says Pte, so this is why its so odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 8 May , 2012 Share Posted 8 May , 2012 MIC says Pte, so this is why its so odd. The MIC's usually only contain information that is pertinent to the entitlement, naming and issue of medals. As this is clearly a post-war shot he might have been promoted some point after it had ceased to be relevant for mention on the card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw119 Posted 9 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2012 His name was Thomas Butler Born 1892, Y&L Reg no. 45371 (from marriage certificate) He was in the East Lancs Regiment Reg no. 31224 - he had the victory and british medals, but not the star. (MIC), cannot find a SWB or I cannot find any records other than that of the marriage certificate. This might be a silly question but what makes you think that the MIC of the East Lancs man is your Thomas Butler? There are lots of Thomas Butler's in the medal index that could be your man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spall Posted 9 May , 2012 Share Posted 9 May , 2012 This might be a silly question but what makes you think that the MIC of the East Lancs man is your Thomas Butler? There are lots of Thomas Butler's in the medal index that could be your man. we have the medals, which each have his regiment number. just there doesnt seem to be a service record which we think didnt make it (but his brothers service record was found through one of his three regiment numbers, so we are thinking thomas may have a third regiment number?). His Brother Harold was also in the war, he had been through 3 different regiments with 3 different service numbers. All found through his service record. nobody knew about a second brother, which he is elusive at the moment, and a different post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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