Royal Horse Artillery Coat?

[Grovetown]

If - big if - the number stamped under the RHA in the sleeve is 63390, then there was a Driver Bertram Russell, L Battery, RHA who entered France on 15-08-14. Which obviously suggests he was a pre-war regular (as I don't think the TF batteries got there that quickly).

I think the lack of the Lance Bombardier on the MIC, if it is indeed our man, is because Driver was his last/ only substantive rank - with the lance bombardier being an appointment. That said, I'm shakey on the whole rank/ appointment thing; so readily stand to be corrected.

Cheers,

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/05/2012 at 12:30, Grovetown said:

If - big if - the number stamped under the RHA in the sleeve is 63390, then there was a Driver Bertram Russell, L Battery, RHA who entered France on 15-08-14. Which obviously suggests he was a pre-war regular (as I don't think the TF batteries got there that quickly).

I think the lack of the Lance Bombardier on the MIC, if it is indeed our man, is because Driver was his last/ only substantive rank - with the lance bombardier being an appointment. That said, I'm shakey on the whole rank/ appointment thing; so readily stand to be corrected.

Cheers,

GT.

That sounds an intriguing possibility. You are close regarding the rank, but there were, as you intimated some idiosyncrasies. At that time (1914-18) there was no Lance Bombardier, but there were 3 Junior NCO grades, one was an appointment with no financial benefit (so a kind of apprenticeship) and two were substantive ranks. The appointment was titled Acting Bombardier and wore one stripe, so his substantive rank was still either Gunner or Driver, which would fit with your suggested scenario. The two substantive ranks were Bombardier (also one stripe) and Corporal (two stripes), both received extra pay for their rank and were on a seniority roll with pension earning rights.

The current ranking structure incorporating Lance Bombardier (one stripe) and Bombardier (two stripes) was introduced in 1922 and intended to bring the RA (as a whole) into line with all other Arms, thus (together with RA and AOC, who lost the rank of Second Corporal (one stripe) in a similar way) standardising the rank structure across the whole Army (less Household Troops and some cavalry) for the first time since the establishment of a 'Standing' (permanent) Army in 1660..

Edited 4 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[kevinrowlinson]

Lance-Bombardier was introduced on 30 November 1917 with ACI 1743. The lance appointments of paid acting bombardier was replaced by paid lance-bombardier and acting paid lance-bombardier, unpaid acting bombardier was replaced by unpaid lance-bombardier. The appointment of acting full bombardier (rank) was replaced simply with acting bombardier (rank). If you search CWGC using Royal Horse Artillery and Lance Bombardier you should see it being used. There will be one or two that have been posthumously changed.

Kevin

[FROGSMILE]

Lance-Bombardier was introduced on 30 November 1917 with ACI 1743. The lance appointments of paid acting bombardier was replaced by paid lance-bombardier and acting paid lance-bombardier, unpaid acting bombardier was replaced by unpaid lance-bombardier. The appointment of acting full bombardier (rank) was replaced simply with acting bombardier (rank). If you search CWGC using Royal Horse Artillery and Lance Bombardier you should see it being used. There will be one or two that have been posthumously changed.

Kevin

That's fascinating stuff Kevin and you might well be right, as there are conflicting views and statements on this. This is what Major (Retd) D Alistair Campbell has to say in his Royal Artillery Institution endorsed book, "THE DRESS OF THE ROYAL ARTILLERY"(SBN 85368491 X (1971)) :

In 1920 the rank of bombardier was upgraded to replace that of Corporal, the latter being abolished in the Regiment. At the same time the appointment of Lance Sergeant was introduced. This meant that the Royal Artillery (together with the Royal Engineers and Royal Army Ordnance Corps, who both had the rank of Second Corporal) lost the extra non-commissioned rank that it had traditionally possessed. In the same year the appointment of Acting Bombardier was changed to that of Lance Bombardier, both of these appointments wearing a single bar chevron.

Interestingly all the online dictionaries quote February 1918 as the date when Acting Bombardier became Lance Bombardier. This latter makes sense as it meant that with effect from that date there was only one position with a single stripe (Lance Bombardier) and one with two stripes (Corporal). However as that was not logical when all other Arms had Lance Corporal and Corporal, the position with two stripes was changed two years later from Corporal to Bombardier, thus retaining the ancient artillery rank and creating a logical progression from Lance Bombadier to Bombardier.

[Grovetown]

That's fascinating stuff Kevin and you might well be right,...

In respect of the ACI cited, I'd say dead right:

1743. Alteration in Nomenclature of Appoinments in the Royal Artillery

1. Owing to the operations of ACI 1701 of 1916 and ACI 337 of 1917 only granting "acting" ranks and appoinments respectively at home, it is necessary to alter the nomenclature for the appoinment of "acting bombardier" shown in King's Regulations, para. 282 (vii), for clearly defining the rank of bombardier and the appoinment of acting bombardier.

2. From the date of this ACI the appoinment of "acting bombardier" will be changed to "lance-bombardier." The necessary amendments to King's Regulations, &c., will be issued in due course.

3. The titles which have been used in making entries in documents and those to be used in future for promotions to the rank of bombardier and appointments to lance-bombardier are detailed as under:-

Old Title. ----------------------------------- New Title.

Bombardier ----------------------------------- Bombardier

Acting (full) bombardier --------------------- Acting bombardier

Paid acting Bombardier -----------------------Paid lance-bombardier

----------------------------------------------Acting paid lance-bombardier

Unpaid acting bombardier --------------------Unpaid lance-bombardier

7/Gen.No./8290 (A.G. 4a)

Cheers,

GT.

PS/ And thanks to Kevin for posting the full text of ACI 1734 elsewhere earlier in the year.

[Dcolosio]

Wow Detroit looks like a war zone these days that's pretty bad.. I would love to visit Woolwich someday, it sounds very interesting indeed! I wish Merle would let us do a show over there. He hates flying and we have had offers to play in the UK. I want to badly! I may have to go on my own, I want to visit London for sure. Thanks for the extra info on the coat also. There was an ink stamp on both sides in the liner but the one on the left is badly faded. I am also wondering if I should have a tear beneath the arm repaired and a shoulder button that came off sewn back on? I am keeping this as a long term investment so I don't want to devalue the piece also.

I am quite pleased that it is not a Chinese factory coat! Thanks for that information my friend.

Oh a side note I purchased some very old lead toy soldiers on my trip and wouldn't ya know it there were a couple RHA pieces in the lot with this uniform.. I was pleasantly surprised!!

[Dcolosio]

OK guys... I must admit I am a little lost but I will continue to study the contents of those last posts. Thanks very much! It would be most interesting if a name could be attached to this piece. Amazing that you all can figure this out!! WOW!

[FROGSMILE]

In respect of the ACI cited, I'd say dead right:

Cheers,

GT.

PS/ And thanks to Kevin for posting the full text of ACI 173 elsewhere earlier in the year.

Thanks to Kevin and GT for confirming the contents of ACI 173, which I had never seen before. It is good to see that members of this forum can correct errors not only in published works directly supported by the Royal Artillery Institution, but render inaccurate all the online dictionary references to the date of origin of the appointment (later rank) of Lance Bombardier. The GWF (and internet) at its best.

[FROGSMILE]

Wow Detroit looks like a war zone these days that's pretty bad.. I would love to visit Woolwich someday, it sounds very interesting indeed! I wish Merle would let us do a show over there. He hates flying and we have had offers to play in the UK. I want to badly! I may have to go on my own, I want to visit London for sure. Thanks for the extra info on the coat also. There was an ink stamp on both sides in the liner but the one on the left is badly faded. I am also wondering if I should have a tear beneath the arm repaired and a shoulder button that came off sewn back on? I am keeping this as a long term investment so I don't want to devalue the piece also.

I am quite pleased that it is not a Chinese factory coat! Thanks for that information my friend.

Oh a side note I purchased some very old lead toy soldiers on my trip and wouldn't ya know it there were a couple RHA pieces in the lot with this uniform.. I was pleasantly surprised!!

I cannot advise on the wise course of action regarding repairs, but perhaps other forum members can. I suspect the faded ink stamp is the one with the original date.

Fortunately ceremonial uniforms (only) are still made in the UK, perhaps for obvious reasons. Most of the highly specialized companies who make them have websites.

You might find these links of interest ready for your visit to London :

1. http://www.english-h...wich-chap10.pdf

2. http://onlineplannin...nts/16665_1.pdf

3. http://www.firepower.org.uk/

Notice in particular the Torin type field service cap worn by the RHA below.

[Dcolosio]

Excellent! Thanks Frogsmile! That should keep me busy for a while..

[Grovetown]

Wow Detroit looks like a war zone these days that's pretty bad.. I would love to visit Woolwich someday, it sounds very interesting indeed! I wish Merle would let us do a show over there. He hates flying and we have had offers to play in the UK. I want to badly! I may have to go on my own, I want to visit London for sure. Thanks for the extra info on the coat also. There was an ink stamp on both sides in the liner but the one on the left is badly faded. I am also wondering if I should have a tear beneath the arm repaired and a shoulder button that came off sewn back on? I am keeping this as a long term investment so I don't want to devalue the piece also.

I am quite pleased that it is not a Chinese factory coat! Thanks for that information my friend.

Oh a side note I purchased some very old lead toy soldiers on my trip and wouldn't ya know it there were a couple RHA pieces in the lot with this uniform.. I was pleasantly surprised!!

Hi Doug

I wouldn't worry about the repair damaging the value if done well - and the button replacement would be OK, if you can find a period item. These are available - eBay for example.

In terms of investment, it's not a retirement piece.

I'd reckon it at circa 1912 and (while I don't know what they go for in the US) I can't see this, in the UK, reaching £200/ $325 and is more likely pitched around £150/ $240. There are some optimists asking £300 - £500 for this kind of thing as 'Buy It Nows' on eBay - but they never seem to sell.

There's a lot of this Edwardian material around and - to my mind - it is still undervalued and a good, inexpensive way of collecting period uniforms.

For instance, my very best Full Dress example is the complete uniform of an officer in the Northamptonshire Regiment. All pieces are named and dateable to 1910-1914; and he was killed on the Aisne on September 14th 1914. That group - by a really spooky coincidence - was acquired two years ago today; and was 'only' £280.

Best wishes,

GT.

[daggers]

A small point about the lead soldiers. The RHA uniform we have been reading about is similar in many respects to Hussar regiments of cavalry. If the colours differ from the RHA version, you probably have Hussars.

D

[Dcolosio]

Thanks GT. I am glad to have the uniform, and it has been really fun finding out more about where and when it originated. I actually paid around 300 US which seems right at market for this then. Gosh I wonder why the shop owner was saying it was a civil war coat? No matter, It was worth the information and the exchange with all the great people on here, this is a very excellent forum!

Thank you D, I did notice in my research that the Hussar uniforms were very similar. The soldier pieces seem to be the right color, with royal blue and gold (although they are pretty faded from age). In any case, thanks for the heads up.

Best Wishes to all!

Doug

[Black 8]

As a final point, the King's Troop is not the only part of the RHA that still exists. They are merely a part of the capital's ceremonial effort (perhaps like the 'Old Guard' in Washington) except that in our era of political correctness and social engineering the troop now contains females, who to my (admittedly old and 'unreconstructed') eyes look rather odd in what is, after all, a 19th Century 'male' shaped uniform. There are also several full strength and operational RHA regiments who complete tours of Iraq and Afghanistan, along with their fellow British and American soldiers. They have no horses or be-frogged uniforms!

1 RHA (Tidworth, AS90), 3 RHA (Hohne, AS90) and 7 Para RHA (Colchester, Light Gun). The former 2 Regts are "steamies" (armoured self-propelled guns) and the latter airborne gunners - arguably being the only operational (as opposed to ceremonial) RHA unit that retains the original purpose of horse artillery in being a light and agile elite within the Gunners. Other than that the distinction between RHA and RA is largely historical (no prizes for guessing where my loyalties lie...!).

We still retain these jackets in the QM's store, and routinely have a couple of lads dicked as "RHA Gunners" in full dress for formal functions, and for the Airborne Gunners that's the only form of dress in which the maroon beret ("beret, ferocious") isn't worn. 1 and 3 RHA also hold them, but only the King's Troop wear them routinely (and jolly smart they look too) - when we fire salutes it tends to be in No. 1 or No.2 dress. Not our "stock in trade" of course - generally we fire HE, Illum or Smoke rather than blank cart...

Anyway, I digress. I got horribly carried away by the very interesting discussion on RHA-related stuff!

[David Porter]

I was shown this one recently. It belonged to a Sergeant in the Somerset Royal Horse Artillery (TF). What is interesting is that the frogging is grey in colour where all the others I have seen have it in yellow/gold.

[FROGSMILE]

I was shown this one recently. It belonged to a Sergeant in the Somerset Royal Horse Artillery (TF). What is interesting is that the frogging is grey in colour where all the others I have seen have it in yellow/gold.

Could it not be that the colour has faded from its original golden yellow as a result of the mould that would be formed in musty storage conditions? There is no indication from contemporary accounts that the frogging of any TF RA unit was different to that of Regulars. The only difference had been silver instead of gold lace chevrons and arm badges (and that too was later changed) together with the discrete TF shoulder titles that can be seen.

[David Porter]

The grey is constant and does not appear to be discolouration or fading. Here is a close up - notice there is one thin thread within the grey that appears gold (to match that holding the buttons) but that is all.

[FROGSMILE]

The grey is constant and does not appear to be discolouration or fading. Here is a close up - notice there is one thin thread within the grey that appears gold (to match that holding the buttons) but that is all.

That's very interesting David. Perhaps it is some unique Somerset distinction connected with the unit's past as a volunteer artillery unit. It requires more research. I imagine the military museum in Taunton might be able to help and I am planning a visit there. I will report back if I can find out anything.