Royal Horse Artillery Coat?

[Dcolosio]

Greetings all.. I am new here and I would very much appreciate if someone could help me identify the approximate age of this coat? I found it on a trip in Kentucky at a small antique store where the consignee was convinced it was from the civil war around the late 1800's. I have done some searching on my own and it seems that this is a Royal Horse Artillery Officers Coat?

Thanks so much for any assistance anyone can offer.

I will post some photos

Best Regards

[saw119]

Looks Victorian to me. Try asking at the Victorian Wars forum, they should know.

[Dcolosio]

Thank you I appreciate the direction and I will do so .

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm not an expert, but the Lance Bombardier's stripe on the right sleeve and the Good Conduct badge on the right cuff, plus the signaller's badge, would tend to indicate it's not an officer's item. Also, I'd suspect the cuff lace is far from intricate enough.

I suspect the letters "RHA" might be some form of clue.

[Dcolosio]

Thanks you kindly Steven this is much appreciated information!

[FROGSMILE]

It is the Dolman type jacket of either a Bombardier (pre WW1) or a Lance Bombardier 1920s onwards in the Royal Horse Artillery (RHA). The braid (frogging) is of yellow worsted, as are the stripes. The uniform has changed very little up until the present day and so is difficult to date precisely without examination of labels and, or, ink stamps inside it.

[FROGSMILE]

and the current version......

[Dcolosio]

Thank you very much for the help. I am not sure how to proceed further with aging the coat. I am on the way home from touring with Merle Haggard (I am his piano player) so I will see if I can get someone to look closer as I can take much better pictures when I am not on a tour bus.

The stitching inside seems fairly primitive (not really super straight and machine looking but I am not enough of a trained eye in textiles to judge that)

Thanks again all, What a great forum!!

Doug Colosio

[Andrew Upton]

I am not sure how to proceed further with aging the coat.

Is it possible to see a close-up of the buttons? They appear to be brass from the pictures, which probability would suggest they have what is often called the "Kings Crown" on them, which would tend to suggest a post-1901/pre-1953 date. If they have what is often called a "Queen Victoria Crown" a pre-1901 date would be likely. And if they have the present style of what is often called a "Queens Crown" on them a 1953 onwards date is more likely (although these are most commonly seen in a horrible plastic-silver finish called "Staybright"). There is of course the caveat of old stocks of buttons being used up, them having been changed for filming etc etc.

[Dcolosio]

Is it possible to see a close-up of the buttons? They appear to be brass from the pictures, which probability would suggest they have what is often called the "Kings Crown" on them, which would tend to suggest a post-1901/pre-1953 date. If they have what is often called a "Queen Victoria Crown" a pre-1901 date would be likely. And if they have the present style of what is often called a "Queens Crown" on them a 1953 onwards date is more likely (although these are most commonly seen in a horrible plastic-silver finish called "Staybright"). There is of course the caveat of old stocks of buttons being used up, them having been changed for filming etc etc.

It appears to be a "Kings Crown" they are certainly brass.. Very interesting! I really appreciate this.. I have a photo..

[FROGSMILE]

It appears to be a "Kings Crown" they are certainly brass.. Very interesting! I really appreciate this.. I have a photo..

Yes, as Andrew said they are King's Crown from 1902 to 1953 and covering the reigns of George V and George VI (i.e. both World Wars).

Traditionally they are ball shaped, as per the Victorian examples shown here.

[FROGSMILE]

And for comparison, here is the officers' version of the same type of jacket. Instead of yellow worsted, the frogging is gold gimp cord.

[squirrel]

Interesting that the OP's picture shows the cap lines still attached to the Dolman.

[Dcolosio]

Yes they are ball shaped in two parts and all have Firmans London stamped on the bottom part of the button.It would be neat if it had actually seen service. I think I am going to spend the money for a good display case to protect it nevertheless.

Thanks for the great information everyone,

Very much appreciated!

[FROGSMILE]

Yes they are ball shaped in two parts and all have Firmans London stamped on the bottom part of the button.It would be neat if it had actually seen service. I think I am going to spend the money for a good display case to protect it nevertheless.

Thanks for the great information everyone,

Very much appreciated!

This is the cap and cap lines (mentioned) by Squirrel above) that would have been worn with your uniform.

[daggers]

This is a busby, the term often misapplied to the Guards' bearskin cap.

[Dcolosio]

Thanks very much, I am thinking about building the ensemble slowly, it would be great to have a complete set! Very Cool! Thanks again and again for the help! You guys are awesome!

I have been searching around the net for photos of this uniform from the wars but it seems difficult to find any combat or drill photos of the RHA in this type of dress during any of the recent war campaigns so far. I am seeing a lot of the modern ceremonial drills with this type of uniform though. Would the patches on this coat also be used on a ceremonial uniform as well??

I wonder if the stitching on this piece could help date it as well or if that became a non issue after 1900 on?

[Dcolosio]

OH also.. am I understanding that my coat was for a bugler? It is a rather small size I thought.

[daggers]

Small sizes of this jacket were in use for the ceremonial band of the Boys Battery RA in the early 1950s, and it's successor, the Boys Regiment, or even later, Junior Leaders Regiment RA.

They would not be marked with the RHA stamp, I think.

D

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks very much, I am thinking about building the ensemble slowly, it would be great to have a complete set! Very Cool! Thanks again and again for the help! You guys are awesome!

I have been searching around the net for photos of this uniform from the wars but it seems difficult to find any combat or drill photos of the RHA in this type of dress during any of the recent war campaigns so far. I am seeing a lot of the modern ceremonial drills with this type of uniform though. Would the patches on this coat also be used on a ceremonial uniform as well??

I wonder if the stitching on this piece could help date it as well or if that became a non issue after 1900 on?

That particular pattern of uniform was not used in action and was (and still is) ceremonial dress. The RHA (King's Troop) are used for the gun salutes when the Queen/King has a birthday or when she/he greets foreign heads of state such as the President of the United States.

The crossed flags badge marks the holder as a qualified signaller.

Hand stitching is still often used for adjustments, depending upon how difficult it is to manoeuvre the sewing machine to the area concerned.

[Staffsyeoman]

Another quandary for me (as a former Gunner myself) as to dating the jacket is the Signaller's badge on the sleeve. It does not appear to have as much age as the rest of the jacket. Admittedly these jackets were 'recycled' through time* and may have had multiple wearers. That said, it is completely original, a very nice thing indeed. It isn't an officer's jacket (that has been well and correctly established already here) - and full dress like this was suspended during the World Wars. If you are reassembling for display, the trousers ('overalls') may not be as hard to find as they were used by other units.

A friend who is a fount of knowledge for all things Gunner (a 'field' gunner like me) reminded me that the RHA - post WW1 - did and do their own thing regardless of direction from Woolwich. (I'm still smarting how we got turfed out of there after two centuries....)

*By means of illustration, a friend who was an officer in the London Scottish in the 1990s drew elements of his uniform from regimental stock; he had a 1942 dated service dress jacket and a 1921 dated officer's kilt).

[Dcolosio]

Thank you Phil, I am honored by your response. Being a sort of amateur antique collector for a few years nowmyself I had noticed this same subject as to pieces of this jacket appearing older or newer than others.. Case in point, not pictured is a rather shiny looking button at the bottom of all the others and although the same type (crown and stamping) appears newer than the rest. It is infinantely helpful to have heard they were recycled and I don't feel quite so "crazy" now.

I am on my way back to my home in California now after a 3 week music tour where I can take somemore photos of this piece. I am also traveling on a tour bus with 9 people so it is difficult to be thoroughTo say the least when examining it. I hope I am not wearing this topic out and apologize if I am doing so. I am just so interested in this piece I want to find out as much as I can. Since I purchased it in Kentucy and we only performed there for one day I am unable to try to contact the original consigned owner who had placed this at the antique store I purchased it from. I had a feeling it was not an American Civil War uniform as was advertised, I bought it because I thoughtit was an absolutely striking jacket that looked like an authentic and important piece of history.

Thanks Again Phil and everyone.. I am learning

Doug Colosio

P.S. In my researching I also thought it just plain disrespectful how they moved the RHA troop away from Woolwich. I experience that in a musical sense playing with Merle Haggard who should be playing tolarger audiences than Taylor Swift in my opinion. ( sorry that's off topic)

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Phil, I am honored by your response. Being a sort of amateur antique collector for a few years nowmyself I had noticed this same subject as to pieces of this jacket appearing older or newer than others.. Case in point, not pictured is a rather shiny looking button at the bottom of all the others and although the same type (crown and stamping) appears newer than the rest. It is infinantely helpful to have heard they were recycled and I don't feel quite so "crazy" now.

I am on my way back to my home in California now after a 3 week music tour where I can take somemore photos of this piece. I am also traveling on a tour bus with 9 people so it is difficult to be thoroughTo say the least when examining it. I hope I am not wearing this topic out and apologize if I am doing so. I am just so interested in this piece I want to find out as much as I can. Since I purchased it in Kentucy and we only performed there for one day I am unable to try to contact the original consigned owner who had placed this at the antique store I purchased it from. I had a feeling it was not an American Civil War uniform as was advertised, I bought it because I thoughtit was an absolutely striking jacket that looked like an authentic and important piece of history.

Thanks Again Phil and everyone.. I am learning

Doug Colosio

P.S. In my researching I also thought it just plain disrespectful how they moved the RHA troop away from Woolwich. I experience that in a musical sense playing with Merle Haggard who should be playing tolarger audiences than Taylor Swift in my opinion. ( sorry that's off topic)

Hello Doug, I do not think you are wearing the subject out for as long as there are questions to ask and knowledge to gain.

I sympathise with Phil about Woolwich and was based there myself with 16th Regt RA when they first returned from Germany. It was perhaps unwise of the RA to base an Air Defence Regt there though and I believe that that (arguably) 'mistake' hastened the decision to move 'Operational units' out. Many millions of pounds were spent building new sheds for the missile launchers and equipment, but there was a restriction as to when the associated radar could be switched on for routine function checks as it was smack in the middle of aircraft traffic flow over the capital and interefered with the traffic control. Add to that the difficulty with training in the local area and getting to and from the barracks with equipment when deploying for field training in the midst of the capital's traffic (Woolwich is in London) and you can get the picture. A decision was eventually made to move operational units out and make it a base for troops on ceremonial duty, where fewer of the problems mentioned would apply (although some still do).

As for the RHA (King's Troop), they had been for very many decades at St John's Wood and (ironically), as part of the decision to move ceremonial duty troops there (and perhaps as a part sop to the RA), the RHA (King's Troop) have been moved to Woolwich and (I understand?) into the sheds designed for missile launchers, but now converted (at the cost of more millions) to stables. Nothing is ever perfect though as the Troop is now on the 'wrong side' of the River Thames and I understand that it is a logistical nightmare to get into central London where many of their duties inevitably take place.

[Dcolosio]

Thank you Frogsmile! That is a most comprehensive and very well executed and informative post. I must say that the British are much more astuteat honoring their military heritage than we Americans can be and I respect that. It sounds like there was really not much of a choice consideringthe economic growth of the city. Thank you for the background and information. It was a good read. I am happy that I stumbled upon this uniform here in the states as I am now a little richer with knowledge because of it.

Is there perhaps anything on the inside of the jacket that I can look for to determine if it was updated from a previous version?

Also I think it is interesting that the Bettles recorded in the same area where the RHA was stationed. I have met Ringo Star personally in Los Angeles.

Interesting how things seem to go around..

Best Wishes

Doug Colosio

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Frogsmile! That is a most comprehensive and very well executed and informative post. I must say that the British are much more astuteat honoring their military heritage than we Americans can be and I respect that. It sounds like there was really not much of a choice consideringthe economic growth of the city. Thank you for the background and information. It was a good read. I am happy that I stumbled upon this uniform here in the states as I am now a little richer with knowledge because of it.

Is there perhaps anything on the inside of the jacket that I can look for to determine if it was updated from a previous version?

Also I think it is interesting that the Bettles recorded in the same area where the RHA was stationed. I have met Ringo Star personally in Los Angeles.

Interesting how things seem to go around..

Best Wishes

Doug Colosio

I am glad that you found it interesting Doug. Jackets for 'other ranks' (the British term for enlisted men) used to be made at the "Royal Army Clothing Factory" in Pimlico (as opposed to China now) and were all ink stamped inside with regimental title (e.g. RHA), a serial number and a date. They also had a robust paper label that unfortunately disintegrates over time. You might be able to find some trace of these inside but remember many of these jackets were later used for Boy Soldiers (enlisted under age for special training and nurtured until old enough for operational service) through until as late as the 1960s, although modern buttons would have been fitted so I do not think that is the case with your jacket. Another indication of age is the type of rank chevron on the right upper arm. This was made of yellow worsted tape until 1953, when it was changed to gold braid.

The next time you visit London it might interest you to visit Woolwich. The re-roling of the barracks there was in part an attempt to retain the last vestiges of a once huge (by British standards) and prestigious Imperial garrison, the largest by far in London. The main barracks has the longest Georgian Architectural Facade (Frontage) in Europe and the building within contains the first purpose built "Officers' Mess", constructed in 1767 - before that officers lived in local taverns. Also within the garrison area was Britain's largest Arms and Ammunition Factory, Gunpowder Laboratory and Officers Technical 'Academy' (for training professional engineers and artillery officers - a kind of technical West Point). It also had for a short time the first officers 'College' that later moved to Sandhurst (for non-technical Arms). To support these were barracks for ordnance (logistics), engineer, artillery (many - it was their 'home'), cavalry, infantry and even marine units. In many respects it was a prototype for the large garrisons that the US now has but the UK does not. Woolwich at that time was a smoking, seething, churning mass of humanity, horses and factories, right at the heart of Empire and in what was then the largest city population in the world. In WW1 it was like a well oiled machine and churning out masses of soldiers, armaments and ammunition, with a huge civilian work force.

Today Woolwich is quite run down (think of Detroit on a small scale) but there is still some small vestiges of the garrison. There is a heritage area and Firepower Museum where the Armaments Factory and Laboratories used to be and the old officers Academy has been converted tastefully into civil accommodation. The common (open grass area that once housed the artillery range) has people picnicing on it and you can still see some of the permanent gun positions where artillery once practised. The old Artillery Barracks (with the long facade) now houses Foot Guards and King's Troop employed on ceremonial duty and so continues in use as a going military concern. The old Officers's Mess has been saved!

As a final point, the King's Troop is not the only part of the RHA that still exists. They are merely a part of the capital's ceremonial effort (perhaps like the 'Old Guard' in Washington) except that in our era of political correctness and social engineering the troop now contains females, who to my (admittedly old and 'unreconstructed') eyes look rather odd in what is, after all, a 19th Century 'male' shaped uniform. There are also several full strength and operational RHA regiments who complete tours of Iraq and Afghanistan, along with their fellow British and American soldiers. They have no horses or be-frogged uniforms!