How long from Britain to Egypt?

[sotonmate]

I also now notice from the list I made at Kew that she didn't leave the UK for the Medi in October either,so we can discount her.

[anthony osborne]

In a post by MG, it is indicated that date of qualification into a war theatre was the date of disembarkation however I'm not sure this is right (I probably am wrong however!) and this is why:

In order to try and find out what happened to Pte ss/20170 William Garlick, I have been trawling Ancestry for soldiers MICs with similar service numbers, exact qualification dates (15/11/15) and exact war theatre (3).

In doing so, I have turned the service record of Pte ss/21500 James Conlin. His service record indicates him being at home between 25/10/15 and 14/11/15 and then being posted to the EEF on 15/11/15 - I'm thinking this last date is the date he embarked for Egypt and not the date he disemberked in Egypt?

Interestingly, his record shows him being in Salonika on 12th December 1915 (he was charged with being drunk and had pay stopped), but there is no reference to being torpedoed (assuming he was in the same draft as William - the same qualification dates and similar enlistment dates suggest they could well have been).

I'm now thinking that perhaps William was torpedoed on the way home - he was discharged in August 1916 due to sickness. Could he have been sent home ill or due to an army re-shuffle?

The mystery continues - patience is the key - I've only got to 'G' in the MIC roll!!!!!!

Ant

[Guest]

Hi Ant -

In theory, the date should be the disembarkation date. An example with a reasonably large body of evidence of over 400 men - The Derbyshire Yeomary sailed from Avonmouth in the UK on 11th April 1915 on the SS Saturnia, arriving in Alexandria on 24th April 1915. It was in a convoy of at least 10 other ships carrying the twelve regiments of the 2nd Mounted Division. The disembarkation took a few days, with the Derbyshire Yeomanry finally disembarking on 27th April 1915. Both the published history and the War Diary confirm these dates.

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 10th April 1915

:

"The Regiment entrained for Avonmouth. Headquarters Boat Details left Cromer G E Station at 5:40 p.m., A Sqn at 7:40 p.m. B Sqn at 9:40 p.m. D Sqn at 11:40 p.m. Strength 27 Officers, 505 Warrant Officers, NCO's & Men, 584 horses"

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 10th April 1915

:

"The Regiment embarked on HMT Saturnia (Donaldson Line), the horses and 5 Officers and 127 men on HMT Montreal. The following Officers embarked on HMT Saturnia: Lieut Colonel Lord Henry Bentinck, Captain R H K Brocklebank 9th Lancers Adj Derby Yeo, QM J B Hodgson, Captain Rev J Bevan, Lieut J O Sherrard, Major G A Strutt, Captain [A H] Betterton, Lieut G Johnson, Lieut R G Birchenough, 2nd Lieut W M B Fielden, 2/Lt R [F] B Swanwick, Major A A Shuttleworth, Captain Lord Vernon, 2/Lt G C Allsbrook, 2/Lt G M Buckston, 2 Lt E Gilpin, Captain W S Power DSO, Captain D'Arcy Clark, 2 Lt C A Branfill, 2 Lt A M Keith, 2 Lt B H G Arkwright, 2 Lt O Fielden (Base Detail Officer) & on HMT Montreal Major F F H Lance 19th Lancers Indian Army, Captaim R M Wilson RAMC TF, Lt R M Aulton AVC TF, 2Lt T H Chetwynd & Lieut Winterbottom. All saddlry and transport was embarked on HMT Montreal. HMT Saturnia sailed at 2 p.m."

The Regiment took a number of days to disembark:

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 24th April 1915

"Arrived at Alexandria. Berthed at Quay at 11 a.m."

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 25th April 1915

:

"The Regiment remained on board HMT Saturnia awaiting arrival of HMT Montreal with horses".

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 26th April 1915

:

"HMT Montreal arrived and was berthed alongside Quay at 10 a.m. the disembarkation of horses & kit immediately proceeded with. Horses picketted along Quays"

War Diary, Derbyshire Yeomanry 27th April 1915

:

"Disemabrkation continued. The Regt marched to Sidi Bishr Camp at 12:30 p.m. arriving at 4:30 p.m. Transport stopped on board"

Separately, I have researched the records of every Derbyshire Yeoman in WWI (over 1800 men). The recorded dates on the 409 MICs of men with relevant dates are as follows:

1. One man with 11th April and Theatre of Operations denoted (3) - note this man does not appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

2. Three men with 12th April and Theatre of Operations denoted (3) - note these men do not appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

3. One man with 24th April and Theatre of Operations denoted (3) - note this man do not appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

4. One man with 25th April and Theatre of Operations denoted (2B) - note this man does not appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

5. Two men with 26th April and Theatre of Operations (3) - note these men do not appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

6. Four hundred (401) men with 27th April and Theatre of operations (3) - all these men appear on the 1915 Star medal roll for the Derbyshire Yeomanry

Note - The Alphanumberic code for Operational Theatre of War (3) denoted Egypt to 31 Dec 1915. Thereafter (3) denoted Russia and Egypt became (4). The Alphanumeric code (2B) denoted Gallipoli (Dardanelles) from 1st Jan 1916, so a MIC with (2B) and disembarkation date of 25th April 1915 is in theory a contradiction as the Alphanumeric code (2B) did not exists in April 1915. Additionally, there is no record of an Derbyshire Yeoman arriving disembarking at Gallipoli directly from the UK In fact it was impossible to disembark at Gallipoli on the 25th April 1915 for two reasons - firstly the whole Yeomanry Division was at sea about to disembark at Alexandria, and secondly (and more compelling) the Gallipoli landings did not start until 25th April 1915. The idea that 1378 Pte V S Hall, a humble pay clerk in the Derbyshire Yeomanry whose MIC records (2B) with the date 25th April 1915 landed with the 29th Div in a hail of gunfire when his regiment was aboard the SS Saturnia at Alexandria Quay waiting to disembark some 700 miles away is very unlikely in my view.

So the body of evidence supports the fact that the disembarkation date was the date recorded on the MIC. Clearly there will always be examples of clerical errors as the data would have been stranscribed a number of times by hand before the MICs were generated. In the example above it is interesting to note that the eight men (2.0% of the sample) outside the recorded disembarkation date for the Derbyshire Yeomanry did not appear on the medal roll and interestingly all served at some time with another unit.

In the example above, it is clear that the regiment arrived on 24th April but started to disembark on 26th April and did not complete the process until 27th April 1915. I suspect that the many of the 400 men got ashore at Alexandria on 26th, however given the magnitude of the logistical challenge recording each individual's disembarkation date, I suspect it was just easier to rubber stamp the whole Regiment as disembarking on 27th April 1915.

I am sure there are hundreds of anomalies in the MICs and Medal Rolls. In my research on the Derbyshire Yeomanry I estimate the number of documents with errors around 9.8% across all the documents - typos, mis-spellings, incorrect dates, inconsistencies across multiple documents, MIC transcription errors, incorrect initials, etc.

If your man was not part of the initial body of his regiment and was a reinforcement is always worth researching the War Diaries as they generally recorded the dates of arrival of reinforcement drafts. I hope this helps provide at least some evidence to support the arguments that the MICs (should) record the disembarkation date.

1915 Star Medal Roll for the Corps of Hussars. Separately, I have the 1915 Star medal roll for the Hussars (all 660 pages) which records the medal entitlement of all Hussars (including Yeomanry Regiments designated as Hussars). This includes the South Notts Hussars, Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (who were in the same Brigade as the Derbyshire Yeomanry) Warwickshire Yeomanry, Worcestershire Yeomanry, Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry, Royal Bucks Hussars, 1st County of London Yeomanry (Middlesex Hussars) and the Dorset Yeomanry - all designated Hussar Regiments within the Yeomanry - who sailed in the same convoy and arrived within a day of each other at Alexandria. Eight Yeomanry Hussar Regiments in total of the original 12 Yeomanry Regiments in the 2nd Mounted Div. We see similar evidence in the dates of the men who landed in Egypt in April 1915 in all these Regiments. The process of embarkation and disembarkation often took a number of days and there may well have been advance parties on occasion which might account for some of the men's MIC dates differing from the regimental records. Lastly on each page of the medal roll it clearly states "Date of Dis-embarkation" and these dates tally with the MICs. It is worth remembering that the MICs were compiled from the medal rolls, not the other-way-around.

It is worth checking your man's details on the medal roll.

Regards MG

[anthony osborne]

MG,

many thanks for the detail. Looks like another trip to the Archives is on the cards. I may be looking at this the wrong way round and maybe my chap was torpedoed on the way back from Egypt?

Thanks again - apologies for the delay in replying - I got caught up in other research!

Ant

[jegmouse]

I know this is an old post but I have info from the War diary of the 2/7th Northumberland Fusiliers trip from Uk to Egypt

20 Jan 1917 2pm/4pm left rest camp for Devonport port docks and embarked on H.M. Transport A.15 (can anyone confirm that this is a boat?)

20 Jan 1917 9pm Sailed from Devonport

27 Jan 1917 12.45pm Arrived Gibralta

12 mdn Left Gibralta

31 Jan 1917 Arrived Malta

2nd Feb 1917 Sailed from Malta

6th Feb 1917 12 noon Arrived Salonica

8th Feb 1917 4.30pm Sailed from Salonica

11th Feb 1917 1pm Arrived Port Said

[sotonmate]

A15 was one of the Australian troopships which brought them to war. It's name can be obtained from AWM records on their website.

Later: "Star of England" was it's name,later called s.s.Port Sydney. See this link for all,some with pics:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/ww1/1aif/troop_transports.htm

[howie8865]

Does any one of any ships leaving Alexandria in Egypt that embarked here on the month of march 1915 and sailed to uk and arrived in April 1915.

If so pls supply names if possible..

Thanks..

[sotonmate]

Your question in this post has nothing to do with the title of the thread ! Someone asked about voyage time between UK and Egypt. I would suggest that if you need an answer for movements between Egypt and UK then you make a new thread. In that way your needs are seen clearly in the title.

However,I will give you a file reference in which is contained the ships which left Alexandria between Jan and Jun 1915 and you can find out from the content ships' papers which ones sailed in March 1915 and arrived in the UK in April 1915. There will surely be a handful.

File ref WO25/3538. Not digital so needs to be read at Kew.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4400400