Identifying my great uncle's cap badge

[gwendraith]

Holly,

9th Battalion, Rifle Brigade was a Service battalion in The Rifle Brigade. Hence the 'S' in brackets you mention.

The Queen Victoria Rifles were a territorial battalion historically connected to the regular rifles regiments (i.e. the King's Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade) but in 1908 formed along with a number of other London-based territorial battalions into the London Regiment. The QVRs became the 9th battalion - i.e. 9th London Regiment, NOT 9th RB

<snip>

I'm not sure where the King's Liverpool Regiment fits in.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply! I think I understand the differences in the origins now. I was pretty certain the cap badge was a RB one as the QVR's one is different. I am assuming that the photo is of Alex at Queenborough. I have other reasons for thinking this, 1) the photo was taken at Sheerness which I know is very close by and was probably the closest photographer and 2) he sent a Rifle Brigade postcard from Queenborough to my grandfather and grandmother to let him know he was going to 'drop by' on the Sunday to see them (they lived in London so a fairly easy day trip).

Alex was almost certainly in the 9th Btn (QVRs) when he was killed as he died on a day the QVRs were in Leuzenake trench and fighting in Leuze Wood, Combles according to the war diaries and he is buried in the Combles community cemetery extension. The QWRs and LRB were also there and, as established in another post of mine, the 13th Composite Brigade although the QVRs relieved them on the day Alex died. The purpose of this post was to try and confirm the photo as Alex and, as all other relatives who fought in France enlisted in different btns with different cap badges it seems most likely given Alex's military record that it is him (my grandfather had the photo and as Alex went to visit him after he enlisted it suggests they were close).

Everyone has been a huge help, so thank you

By the way The King's Liverpool Regiment is the regiment Alex's twin brother, Charles, was in. They both enlisted in 1915 on different dates and into different regiments. There is a twist to the story as all the brothers still lived at home except for Alex who lived close by. It seemed odd to me that he had left home but I guess I'll never know the reason now. He also signed up under a slightly different name to his birth one which caused me some problems looking for his military records. He is Alexander Arthur John Evans and he signed up as John Alexander Evans. Who knows why but maybe linked to the fact he had left home by 18 years old. A family rift maybe. The records are definitely his as he named my great grandfather as next of kin at the correct address and with his military records is a document his father had to fill out after Alex was killed with all his living close relatives names including my grandfather with correct addresses and it was remarked that Charles was Alex's twin brother so that all fits nicely. So, it's been a bit of a complicated search for him but it's turned out well in the end as I am going to see his grave in Combles in June, which I am so excited about although I know it's going to be so emotional.

Thanks again,

Kind regards,

Holly

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Mark

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply! I think I understand the differences in the origins now. I was pretty certain the cap badge was a RB one as the QVR's one is different. I am assuming that the photo is of Alex at Queenborough. I have other reasons for thinking this, 1) the photo was taken at Sheerness which I know is very close by and was probably the closest photographer and 2) he sent a Rifle Brigade postcard from Queenborough to my grandfather and grandmother to let him know he was going to 'drop by' on the Sunday to see them (they lived in London so a fairly easy day trip).

Alex was almost certainly in the 9th Btn (QVRs) when he was killed as he died on a day the QVRs were in Leuzenake trench and fighting in Leuze Wood, Combles according to the war diaries and he is buried in the Combles community cemetery extension. The QWRs and LRB were also there and, as established in another post of mine, the 13th Composite Brigade although the QVRs relieved them on the day Alex died. The purpose of this post was to try and confirm the photo as Alex and, as all other relatives who fought in France enlisted in different btns with different cap badges it seems most likely given Alex's military record that it is him (my grandfather had the photo and as Alex went to visit him after he enlisted it suggests they were close).

Everyone has been a huge help, so thank you

By the way The King's Liverpool Regiment is the regiment Alex's twin brother, Charles, was in. They both enlisted in 1915 on different dates and into different regiments. There is a twist to the story as all the brothers still lived at home except for Alex who lived close by. It seemed odd to me that he had left home but I guess I'll never know the reason now. He also signed up under a slightly different name to his birth one which caused me some problems looking for his military records. He is Alexander Arthur John Evans and he signed up as John Alexander Evans. Who knows why but maybe linked to the fact he had left home by 18 years old. A family rift maybe. The records are definitely his as he named my great grandfather as next of kin at the correct address and with his military records is a document his father had to fill out after Alex was killed with all his living close relatives names including my grandfather with correct addresses and it was remarked that Charles was Alex's twin brother so that all fits nicely. So, it's been a bit of a complicated search for him but it's turned out well in the end as I am going to see his grave in Combles in June, which I am so excited about although I know it's going to be so emotional.

Thanks again,

Kind regards,

Holly

Hello again Holly,

Mark has indeed given you an excellent reply and expanded even further on a lot of information that I had already give you in Post # 18.

However, I am (and I expect he will be too) very puzzled as to why you are still quoting the 9th London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles), as they had absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with the 9th (Service) Battalion of the Rifle Brigade with which your GGF was serving on the Western Front and within which he died (as outlined so well by Steve (aka Stebie) based upon the documents that you provided). They are entirely different units, entirely different capbadges, entirely different Brigades and, entirely different Divisions.

I had thought you understood all this based upon our last communication both here and by email.

[gwendraith]

Hello again Holly,

Mark has indeed given you an excellent reply and expanded even further on a lot of information that I had already give you in Post # XX.

However, I am (and I expect he will be too) very puzzled as to why you are still quoting the 9th London Regiment (Queen's Westminster Rifles), as they had absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with the 9th (Service) Battalionj of the Rifle Brigade with which your GGF was serving on the Western Front and within which he died (as outlined so well by Steve). They are entirely different units, entirely different capbadges, entirely different Brigades and, entirely different Divisions.

I had thought you understood all this based upon our last communication.

Hi

I do understand, really I do. I had it in my head that great uncle Alex started off in the RB and transferred to the QVRs later on and was with them when he died. I do see that he was always with the 9th Btn RB and that there is a difference between them and the QVRs. I also understand about the QWR who were the 16th I believe and not the 9th. I have their diaries as they were in the same area as the QVRs (whom I thought Alex was with) in September and I found by reading other battalions diaries in the location and cross referencing their positions that I get the best overall picture of what happened. I think I am confusing you with my methods of research . I am new to this (a couple of weeks or so) and it takes a while for pennies to drop. When you have a lot of experience things seem easy but when explaining to someone of no experience it doesn't necessarily make total sense to them at first even though it makes perfect sense to you I wasn't aware for instance, until today, that his grave may not always been at Combles so he might not have died there, a red herring for she of little experience

I appreciate your help and patience

regards,

Holly

[FROGSMILE]

Hi

I do understand, really I do. I had it in my head that great uncle Alex started off in the RB and transferred to the QVRs later on and was with them when he died. I do see that he was always with the 9th Btn RB and that there is a difference between them and the QVRs. I also understand about the QWR who were the 16th I believe and not the 9th. I have their diaries as they were in the same area as the QVRs (whom I thought Alex was with) in September and I found by reading other battalions diaries in the location and cross referencing their positions that I get the best overall picture of what happened. I think I am confusing you with my methods of research . I am new to this (a couple of weeks or so) and it takes a while for pennies to drop. When you have a lot of experience things seem easy but when explaining to someone of no experience it doesn't necessarily make total sense to them at first even though it makes perfect sense to you I wasn't aware for instance, until today, that his grave may not always been at Combles so he might not have died there, a red herring for she of little experience

I appreciate your help and patience

regards,

Holly

No worries Holly, it's just that when you said:

"Alex was almost certainly in the 9th Btn (QVRs) when he was killed as he died on a day the QVRs were in Leuzenake trench and fighting in Leuze Wood, Combles according to the war diaries and he is buried in the Combles community cemetery extension. ".

............it seemed as if everything that Steve, Mark and myself had explained previously had been lost.

It was quite common for soldiers KIA to be buried in small plots very close to where they fell and then later to be moved to a larger (often Formation level) cemetery and then at the end of the war get moved yet again.

[gwendraith]

No worries Holly, it's just that when you said:

"Alex was almost certainly in the 9th Btn (QVRs) when he was killed as he died on a day the QVRs were in Leuzenake trench and fighting in Leuze Wood, Combles according to the war diaries and he is buried in the Combles community cemetery extension. ".

............it seemed as if everything that Steve, Mark and myself had explained previously had been lost.

It was quite common for soldiers KIA to be buried in small plots very close to where they fell and then later to be moved to a larger (often Formation level) cemetery and then at the end of the war get moved yet again.

It's okay, the penny dropped well and truly after I made that comment when I was processing what Mark had said particularly about Alex's grave not necessarily being there in Combles originally. Like I said I was thinking that he started in the RB and moved to the QVRs later. I had made the wrong assumption that he must have been killed in Combles, put 2 + 2 together, came up with five and thought (in my inexperienced brain) that he was with 9th QVRs as the 9th QVRs were there in Combles. Everything pointed in my mind to the 9th QVRs until I realised he might have been reburied ONLY then did my one track mind slip fully off the track onto another one (thankfully). It was the grave being there that really threw me and my wrong assumptions and general naivety. I have gone from knowing or understanding absolutely nothing about the detail of WW1 to having learnt so much from everyone in a very short space of time.

The war diaries for the 9th RB are infuriatingly bare for the date in question (13/9/16) and they were in camp at Bécordel-Bécourt so I have no idea what happened or where. I really need the Combles grave register to see if they made notes as to when each man was buried or reburied there and where they came from originally. I have written to the B&B in Combles to ask if they know (he is a WW1 historian) and also the CWGC.

I know where his grave is, which is the main thing

Thanks Frogsmile

[Stebie9173]

Interestingly, Alex Evan's name appears amongst a list of men reported as Killed that appeared in the Times of 18-10-1916. The interesting part is that all of these men were noted as killed on the 15th September 1916 (Lance-Corporal 5/17410 Frederick Charles Coster killed with 9th Battalion on the 15th is even buried at Combles Communal Cemetery Extension with Alex Evans, so it would seem likely that men from the area of Flers where the 9th Battalion men were killed ended up buried at Combles).

I suspect that Alex's CWGC commemoration/records have recorded his date of death incorrectly, and he was actually killed on the 15th.

There is actually a note on his record that he was killed on the 15th (image 61227 again), that was later "corrected" to the 13th!

Steve.

[gwendraith]

Interestingly, Alex Evan's name appears amongst a list of men reported as Killed that appeared in the Times of 18-10-1916. The interesting part is that all of these men were noted as killed on the 15th September 1916 (Private Coster is even buried at Combles Communal Cemetery Extension with Alex Evans).

I suspect that Alex's CWGC commemoration/records have recorded his date of death incorrectly, and he was actually killed on the 15th.

Steve.

What a star you are! That is definitely him and I always wondered if his military records were correct as on one of his documents that date looks a little iffy although it clearly states 13th on every other document. Mind you it might explain why he was seemingly 'killed in action' when they were in camp on 13th.

Thanks for this Steve

[Stebie9173]

The fact that one of his fellow 9th Rifle Brigade men is also at Combles (Lance-Corporal Frederick Charles Coster, KIA 15-9-1916) is also at Combles, does point to the burial at Combles being a later burial of men in smaller plots made as battlefield graves that were reburied just after the war. Becourt-Becordel just outside Albert is definitely in the wrong part of the battlefield to end up at Combles.

Steve.

[gwendraith]

The fact that one of his fellow 9th Rifle Brigade men is also at Combles (Lance-Corporal Frederick Charles Coster, KIA 15-9-1916) is also at Combles, does point to the burial at Combles being a later burial of men in smaller plots made as battlefield graves that were reburied just after the war. Becourt-Becordel just outside Albert is definitely in the wrong part of the battlefield to end up at Combles.

Steve.

Hi Steve

Re-reading the war diary they were SW of Becourt-Becordel when they were in camp on 13th. On the 14th they marched to Delville Wood at night. On 15th "Btn in attack, 41st Div on left the Guards Div on right. Btn took all objectives". Casualties O/R killed 56, wounded 160, missing 182. Lt EHL Southwell was killed in the same battle apparently. Delville Wood is only about 3 miles from Combles I wonder if that was close enough to move graves?

Regards

Holly

regards

Holly

L

[Stebie9173]

The attack by the 9th Rifle Brigade on the 15th September 1916 was against a trench called "Bulls Road" which is near enough on the line of the modern road between Flers and Lesbouefs. The north-eastern corner of Delville Wood was the battalions starting point. The burial of Lance-Corporal Coster there as well certainly suggests that Combles was the final destination of men from graves from that area.

Steve.

[gwendraith]

The attack by the 9th Rifle Brigade on the 15th September 1916 was against a trench called "Bulls Road" which is near enough on the line of the modern road between Flers and Lesbouefs. The north-eastern corner of Delville Wood was the battalions starting point. The burial of Lance-Corporal Coster there as well certainly suggests that Combles was the final destination of men from graves from that area.

Steve.

Thanks, Steve (goes to look at all the trench maps I have for the Somme!) It's looking like that was the battle Alex could have died in. It is SO frustrating! I am still banking on finding casualty rolls for the 9th Btn (the 8th kept great ones) and also a cemetery register which might yield what I want to know. It certainly makes it easier when the search is shared, especially as I am still a learner at this There are 10 Rifle Brigade graves at Combles but I don't know which battalions they were. Fingers crossed I can get the answers.

Thanks again,

Holly

[MBrockway]

Holly,

Please tread very carefully on the subject of Evelyn Southwell. His story has touched many of the Pals deeply and he has particular resonance for myself and Andy

Lt Southwell is likely to have been well known to Alex.

There is a great deal of information here on the Forum about 9/RB and the 15th September 1916 including the locations of temporary burial plots IIRC.

Some well-constructed forum searching will advance your research a long way.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Holly,

Returning to your other great uncle, Charles, in "21st London, The King's Liverpool Regiment", can you clarify your source for that? there is an inconsistency there, unless you mean he enlisted into the 21st Btn, London Regiment and later transferred to a KLR battalion?

I'm currently in St Nazaire at the 70th anniversary commemorations of the 1942 commando raid and particularly remembering three Liverpool Scottish commandos who were billeted by my grandparents and mother from mid 1941. They went straight to Falmouth and on to the raid from my grandparents' hearth

The Liverpool Scottish were part of the King's Liverpool Regiment in the Great War hence my interest.

It would be quite unusual for a London man to enlist into the KLRs and I'm worried your researches on this great uncle may be heading in a wrong direction.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

There is a great deal of information here on the Forum about 9/RB and the 15th September 1916 including the locations of temporary burial plots IIRC.

I seem to remember a thread about 15 Sep 1916 dates of death being misrecorded for 9/RB also.

I'm in France posting off a smartphone at the moment and there's no way it'll handle a good trawl through the forum I'm afraid!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Holly,

Search on 'rifleman edmund sawyer' ... You should find something to your advantage :-)

Cheers,

Mark

[gwendraith]

Holly,

Returning to your other great uncle, Charles, in "21st London, The King's Liverpool Regiment", can you clarify your source for that? there is an inconsistency there, unless you mean he enlisted into the 21st Btn, London Regiment and later transferred to a KLR battalion?

I'm currently in St Nazaire at the 70th anniversary commemorations of the 1942 commando raid and particularly remembering three Liverpool Scottish commandos who were billeted by my grandparents and mother from mid 1941. They went straight to Falmouth and on to the raid from my grandparents' hearth

The Liverpool Scottish were part of the King's Liverpool Regiment in the Great War hence my interest.

It would be quite unusual for a London man to enlist into the KLRs and I'm worried your researches on this great uncle may be heading in a wrong direction.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, sorry, I fear I am confusing people again but since the start of this I have learnt a lot about the regiments! Charles enlisted in the 21st Btn London Regiment and transferred to the 25th King's Liverpool Regiment at a later date according to his service record and went to Egypt with them. I think, after 1918. During WW1 he was mostly with the Royal Fusiliers. I met him a couple of times when I was a child. I haven't really researched him, I only got his service record and haven't looked very closely at it. I think I mentioned he was Alex's twin brother?

I hope you are having a pleasant time in St Nazaire. What an interesting story. Did any of the commandos survive?

I was at the National Archives yesterday looking at the 9th Btn RB war diaries

Kind regards

Holly

[gwendraith]

Holly,

Please tread very carefully on the subject of Evelyn Southwell. His story has touched many of the Pals deeply and he has particular resonance for myself and Andy

Lt Southwell is likely to have been well known to Alex.

There is a great deal of information here on the Forum about 9/RB and the 15th September 1916 including the locations of temporary burial plots IIRC.

Some well-constructed forum searching will advance your research a long way.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark

Of course I will tread carefully. I only mentioned him as I spotted his name and I had known he was highly regarded and quite a famous figure in WW1 circles. I read a bit about him in a book I had hold of. I hadn't given a thought that Alex might have known of him but of course he must have.

Thanks for the heads up about the temporary burial plots. I will take a look. I have also written to the CWGC to see if they know anything.

Regards

Holly

[gwendraith]

Holly,

Search on 'rifleman edmund sawyer' ... You should find something to your advantage :-)

Cheers,

Mark

Thank you! Well, that's interesting isn't it I also looked at Edmund's service record and that says 'for official purposes his death date was given as 15th September 1916'. There no mention of Alex's death date being given as anything but the date it was reported he died on (13th). I might see if his death certificate yields anything. At the end of the day I suppose it could have been the 13th and he was hit by a stray bullet or shell even though the battalion was in camp or they got it wrong. At least I know where he is buried which is the main thing.

You have been so helpful, Mark, thank you so much.

best wishes

Holly