German artillery troop weapons

[cwbuff]

What long arms were issued to German artillery troops?

[bob lembke]

What long arms were issued to German artillery troops?

Others know this better.

However, ideally (I assume that you mean rifles/carbines) they would have been issued the carbine version of the Gewehr 98, but at that time (mobilization) most German artillery were various reserve formations, and the Army went from something like 700,000 to 4,000,000, so a lot of other weapons were probably issued to artillery, as the rifle was relatively less important to artillery than to newly formed infantry units. They might have been issued one of several captured carbines. A lot of 2nd and 3d line German reserve units got Russian rifles, as so many were captured.So they probably got many Russian carbines. The Germans captured many Russian cavalry light machine guns, the Madsen, and formed light machine gun battalions equipped with this good weapon, so they must have also captured many cavalry carbines.

I believe that the two or three German carbines issued before the carbine version of the '98 were quite poor weapons, at least I just read that.

You didn't ask, but artillery troops also got a lot of a model of German revolver circa 1873, a big thing.

My grand-father was an artillery officer (of a sort), a Feuerwerk=Hauptmann, and was what one might call a "gun nut", and he carried the Mauser C96, which my father said was his favorite pistol, but it certainly was a private weapon.

Bob Lembke

[shippingsteel]

Bob's right, the Artillery troops were most commonly issued with the carbines, either the Kar88 or Kar98 versions (as shown below) LINK

But in many cases they got issued with whatever was available, especially in the times when the regular weapons were in short supply.

Captured Belgian and Russian weapons were used, together with many older and obsolete rifles from much earlier periods when required.

Cheers, S>S

[bob lembke]

The guy in the photo certainly seems to be in his mid-30's, so he probably was Landwehr, or even conceivably Landsturm. So he was lucky to be issued a Kar98. Perhaps it was a bit later in the war. I have some figures on the amount of weapons and shell captured, especially when a fortress was captured; usually the Russians did not manage to destroy a lot of materiel; at one fort or another (these really are multi-fort fortresses not a single work)1300 and 1600 cannon were captured, and 900,000 artillery shells, 910,000 shells, or at one fortress 100 50 car long trains loaded with artillery shells worth sending back to Germany. Some of the guns were junk, but many built out of very valuable bronze, while others were modern guns. On the Western Front many German divisions had several batteries of heavy Russian artillery, and I am sure that they were happily tossing all of this shell on the French and the Brits. Many of the guns probably were Krupp or Erhardt exported guns, if possibly in other calibers.

So I am sure they captured many rifles, as they were also capturing Russian soldiers often by the hundreds of thousands.

Bob

[bob lembke]

The guy in the photo certainly seems to be in his mid-30's, so he probably was Landwehr, or even conceivably Landsturm. So he was lucky to be issued a Kar98. Perhaps it was a bit later in the war. I have some figures on the amount of weapons and shell captured, especially when a fortress was captured; usually the Russians did not manage to destroy a lot of materiel; at one fort or another (these really are multi-fort fortresses not a single work)1300 and 1600 cannon were captured, and 900,000 artillery shells, 910,000 shells, or at one fortress 100 50 car long trains loaded with artillery shells worth sending back to Germany. Some of the guns were junk, but many built out of very valuable bronze, while others were modern guns. On the Western Front many German divisions had several batteries of heavy Russian artillery, and I am sure that they were happily tossing all of this shell on the French and the Brits. Many of the guns probably were Krupp or Erhardt exported guns, if possibly in other calibers.

So I am sure they captured many rifles, as they were also capturing Russian soldiers often by the hundreds of thousands.

Bob

[Tom W.]

What long arms were issued to German artillery troops?

Officially, carbines. The active units got the Kar 98AZ, while the reserve, Ersatz, Landwehr, and Landsturm units got the Kar 88.

Here are members of a Batterietrupp of Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 57.

[Khaki]

What is the belt equipment(post # 6) man on left, belt pouch? below binocular case.

khaki

[bob lembke]

What is the belt equipment(post # 6) man on left, belt pouch? below binocular case.

khaki

Note that the man on the left is carrying that Reichsrevolver 73 that I mentioned above, note the lanyard ring on the butt. (Not 100% sure that that was the proper name for that revolver.) In the beginning of the war not that much attention was paid to the small arms of the artillery. Late in the war every field gun battery was, I believe, given two machine guns.

Bob

[Tom W.]

What is the belt equipment(post # 6) man on left, belt pouch? below binocular case.

khaki

I've not been able to find out. Batterietrupps were nominally reconnaissance units for artillery batteries, but they were also trained as infantry shock troops. They often engaged in hand-to-hand combat and were usually equipped with grenades and trench daggers. It may be a pouch for speed loaders for the revolver, something that would come in quite handy during close combat.

[MikB]

I've not been able to find out. Batterietrupps were nominally reconnaissance units for artillery batteries, but they were also trained as infantry shock troops. They often engaged in hand-to-hand combat and were usually equipped with grenades and trench daggers. It may be a pouch for speed loaders for the revolver, something that would come in quite handy during close combat.

If the Reichsrevolver is the thing I think it is, there'd be no point in speedloaders. It was a single-action, solid-frame gate-loader, much like the Colt Peacemaker in general concept (but without the built-in ejector slide), requiring each round to be loaded, and each empty to be ejected, individually through a hinged gate in the recoil plate. The only workround to use a speedloader would've been to withdraw the cylinder axle and remove the cylinder. Quite apart from the time that might take, nobody would want to do that in muddy combat because of the risk of dropping or losing either or both bits.

Unusually for Germany, this gun was already obsolescent when adopted, and is a very long way from ideal for trench-fighting. It would only have been issued to WW1 troops as a matter of emergency or to those not expected to engage in intense combat.

I don't think anybody dared mention it in the 'Best primary handgun' thread!

Regards,

MikB

[Khaki]

Looking closely at it, it almost has the appearance of a 'roll' maybe tool's?

khaki

[ph0ebus]

Officially, carbines. The active units got the Kar 98AZ, while the reserve, Ersatz, Landwehr, and Landsturm units got the Kar 88.

Here are members of a Batterietrupp of Reserve-Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 57.

Tom,

If memory serves me right, my grandfather served briefly with this unit. I think it's the first RFAR 57 thing I have seen. Thanks for sharing it!

Daniel

[Tom W.]

If the Reichsrevolver is the thing I think it is, there'd be no point in speedloaders. It was a single-action, solid-frame gate-loader, much like the Colt Peacemaker in general concept (but without the built-in ejector slide), requiring each round to be loaded, and each empty to be ejected, individually through a hinged gate in the recoil plate. The only workround to use a speedloader would've been to withdraw the cylinder axle and remove the cylinder. Quite apart from the time that might take, nobody would want to do that in muddy combat because of the risk of dropping or losing either or both bits.

Unusually for Germany, this gun was already obsolescent when adopted, and is a very long way from ideal for trench-fighting. It would only have been issued to WW1 troops as a matter of emergency or to those not expected to engage in intense combat.

It could be a Mauser 1878 revolver. That weapon used speed loaders.

[Tom W.]

Tom,

If memory serves me right, my grandfather served briefly with this unit. I think it's the first RFAR 57 thing I have seen. Thanks for sharing it!

Daniel

Daniel,

If you want the photo, maybe we can make a deal. I collect photos of very young WWI soldiers from any country or unit (for a future book project) and WWI flamethrower troops from any country.

If you have any photos lying around or know someone you can get one from, I'll trade you. Send me a PM if you're interested.

[MikB]

It could be a Mauser 1878 revolver. That weapon used speed loaders.

I'd forgotten about those! But it's the Reichsrevolver that had the elliptical metal buttplate visible in the picture. I haven't found a pic on the net of a ZickZack with one o' they...

Anybody know what the chap on the right has on his back? Is it a surveying tripod or something - or a Stutzen-stocked carbine of some sort - like a Mannlicher?

Regards,

MikB

[shippingsteel]

Anybody know what the chap on the right has on his back? Is it a surveying tripod or something - or a Stutzen-stocked carbine of some sort - like a Mannlicher?

Its the Kar88 carbine with that unmistakeable snub nose which was designed to slide easily into the gun-buckets of the cavalry saddles (or kavallerie or uhlan even.!)

Cheers, S>S

[cwbuff]

Thanks for all the great information. My wife's grandfather was in FAR 64. Other than seeing pictorial evidence, are there any records of what arms were issued to specific units?

[ph0ebus]

Daniel,

If you want the photo, maybe we can make a deal. I collect photos of very young WWI soldiers from any country or unit (for a future book project) and WWI flamethrower troops from any country.

If you have any photos lying around or know someone you can get one from, I'll trade you. Send me a PM if you're interested.

Thanks, Tom...I'll give that some thought.

My GF was indeed with RFAR57 (Light Ammunition Column), from January 30, 1915 through July 10, 1915, but he spent most of that time in the hospital with Typhoid.

-Daniel

[bob lembke]

Thanks for all the great information. My wife's grandfather was in FAR 64. Other than seeing pictorial evidence, are there any records of what arms were issued to specific units?

I read all sorts of books, documents, or memoires about the German Army in WW I, and I am sure that there were no "records", but the occasional memoire might mention it. I remember reading about a machine gun unit, I think a company, and they used the MG 08 (later in the war, it would have been 12), but the unit kept in reserve three UK Vickers, and one Russian MG; I think all of these were not that far from the MG 08 in design. This would not have been recorded in anything that I could think of. Of course most German Army records were destroyed in 1945.

As previously mentioned, when the war started the active army went from about 700,000 to 4 million, and then perhaps to 6 million. So at the beginning all sorts of weapons had to be used, especially by the Reserve, Landwehr, & Landsturm. The photo of the older artilleryman with a Kar98 would have been very unusual in the beginning of the war. As German production continued, units first given Beute weapons or old models got a modern German weapon. Also, the number of MGs in infantry units increased dramatically, and other crew-served weapons were numerous. In late 1916 my father's Pionier storm unit carried no rifles; they only had crew-served weapons, some captured, some others made by the unit themselves, and every EM/OR also carried an automatic pistol. This level of armament would not have been possible early in the war.

Bob

[Cnock]

Hi,

there exists fotos of German artillerists in 1915, showing them wearing Reichsrevolver Mod.1879 and Mod.1883

Cnock

[Tom W.]

If the Reichsrevolver is the thing I think it is, there'd be no point in speedloaders. It was a single-action, solid-frame gate-loader, much like the Colt Peacemaker in general concept (but without the built-in ejector slide), requiring each round to be loaded, and each empty to be ejected, individually through a hinged gate in the recoil plate. The only workround to use a speedloader would've been to withdraw the cylinder axle and remove the cylinder. Quite apart from the time that might take, nobody would want to do that in muddy combat because of the risk of dropping or losing either or both bits.

I think I've figured it out. I did some research, and you're actually exactly right. The way the empty shell casings were removed from the Reichsrevolver was by withdrawing the axis pin, taking out the entire cylinder, and pulling out each shell casing by hand, a very time-consuming process.

So, I'll bet that cylindrical leather pouch holds two or three complete cylinders, loaded with shells. It doesn't appear to be a standard-issue piece of equipment. This photo is relatively early in the war, since there are no gas masks and the men are still wearing Pickelhauben with the balls attached and high boots instead of puttees. But since the men of Batterietrupps expected to meet the enemy and fight him in close quarters, they would want a method of reloading quickly. The guy likely had the item custom made.

And don't forget that these are reconnaissance troops. They would be operating in the open as scouts rather than in muddy trenches. They have flashlights and binoculars and are extremely lightly equipped, one with a pistol and the other with a Kar 88 and one ammunition pouch. Their mission was to sneak in and observe, and if they were confronted they would try to shoot their way out. Later in the war they were trained in shock tactics and armed with hand grenades and trench daggers.

These fellows look like they've seen lots of action. They're rumpled and dirty, and they have an air of steely professionalism about them. I wouldn't put it past the man on the left to have created his own method of speed loading by carrying complete cylinders already fully loaded.

[MikB]

...

So, I'll bet that cylindrical leather pouch holds two or three complete cylinders, loaded with shells.

...

These fellows look like they've seen lots of action. They're rumpled and dirty, and they have an air of steely professionalism about them. I wouldn't put it past the man on the left to have created his own method of speed loading by carrying complete cylinders already fully loaded.

That possibility certainly can't be discounted. I believe soldiers carrying percussion revolvers in the American Civil War carried loaded spare cylinders - though Gawd knows how they managed to change 'em in action without dropping the wedge or barrel. I've never heard of this practice with a cartridge revolver, and of course there's a possibility that cylinders weren't generally interchangeable - as SMLE bolts weren't. The question then is whether extra cylinders could be come by separately, or required the cannibalising of other revolvers?

Anybody know whether extra cylinders were ever available?

Regards,

MikB

PS - I agree they look a fearsome pair - I wouldn't want to meet 'em in NML even with my trusty Webley...

[Radlad]

I've handled quite a few reichsrevolvers and fired a couple, never heard or seen spare cylinders though and they are very slow to load so it's possible troops using them carried a smaller back up weapon in their pockets? I think the cylindrical case is for a small telescope to suppliment the low powered binoculars the men are carrying.

[Khaki]

The 'spare cylinders' idea is an interesting one, but whereas a percussion cylinder has the powder and ball seated snugly, I think that cartridges would more than likely fall from the cylinder either in the pouch or in rapid handling. It would be a lot easier to procure a 'backup' pistol. I think the small 'telescope' is a strong possibility.

khaki

[truthergw]

I blew the pic up a bit and I can see that the cylindrical object has some sort of attachment on the end, a smaller diameter cylinder. It looks like the object can fit on the end of something. I have absolutely no idea what it is.