madman Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 i apologise in advance for wht will seem like a pointless rant , and i suppose this particular case is none of my business as i sold the medal group in question,, the main point for this is i sold a 1914-15 trio to a Royal Engineer which only the bwm has appeared on a online auction site , why would someone break up a group is this purely just to make more profit because i would assume a group would bring more than a medal on its own , value isn't really the point i just cant grasp why this would happen seein as so much is celebrated from re-uniting groups regards madman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardtrabane Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 I also believe that groups should not be broken up, unfortunately not everyone else does. I suspect profit is the sole factor. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 The answer may lie in a current Thread about wills. But I may be a little bit blase having inherited two Trios and know who inherits them. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regimentalrogue Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Some groups are broken up within a family to pass on a memento to more then one heir. I have put back together two medals (of four) of a man's that were dispersed in this manner. I know this to be the case because one medal came with his brothers three medals, while the second came to me accompanied by two regimental sports medallions which were also obviously kept together by someone who understood their significance and connection. As for breaking up a group once it has come into the collectors' market, the main cause (in my own opinion) is greed. For a collectible and contested regiment, full groups may call for prices above the individual medals. But for others, a patient but unscrupulous seller may decide that by dispersing one or more medals, the potential value of the others rises as dedicated collectors will pay over the odds to achieve a reunite and restore broken groups. Sadly, such sellers - although I do not know if this is the particular case in question - are preying upon the good will of collectors who understand the significance of restoring broken groups when they can do so, even accepting they may never send on the group to a new collector at anything but a loss afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I don't collect medals anymore but I can understand the frustration. What made my hackles rise was seeing several BWM's being sold with their weight and a silver price, this seemed a bit odd given that in my opinion the BWM's in question were worth more intact than melted down and the seller often sold medals so it wasn't as if he didn't know the value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardtrabane Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 1331173120[/url]' post='1722572']Some groups are broken up within a family to pass on a memento to more then one heir. I have put back together two medals (of four) of a man's that were dispersed in this manner. I know this to be the case because one medal came with his brothers three medals, while the second came to me accompanied by two regimental sports medallions which were also obviously kept together by someone who understood their significance and connection. As for breaking up a group once it has come into the collectors' market, the main cause (in my own opinion) is greed. For a collectible and contested regiment, full groups may call for prices above the individual medals. But for others, a patient but unscrupulous seller may decide that by dispersing one or more medals, the potential value of the others rises as dedicated collectors will pay over the odds to achieve a reunite and restore broken groups. Sadly, such sellers - although I do not know if this is the particular case in question - are preying upon the good will of collectors who understand the significance of restoring broken groups when they can do so, even accepting they may never send on the group to a new collector at anything but a loss afterwards. This is correct, it happened to me a couple of years ago. I had bought a BWM online, approximately 2 weeks later the VM (pair was the full entitlement) appeared for sale on the same site. I had to go for it, upped my bid but was unsuccessful. I thought nothing ventured nothing gained to I emailed the winning bidder saying that I had the BWM in my possession and would he sell me the VM for a small profit as I would like to reunite the pair. Unfortunately they were not interested in selling but they did offer to buy the WM. I did sell them the medal at basically what it cost me including fees and postage etc but at least the group was reunited not necessarily the way I wanted to but reunited. Don't be surprised if "missing medals" appear for sale shortly. Some would say maximising profits I agree more like "greed" Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnhem44 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Greed does appear to be the main factor and it seems to be happening every day of the week.I think everyone has had some experience of seeing groups broken up,I myself kept a few split groups together that I saw for sale and thankfully they made no more than what they were valued at at the time but from watching split groups for sale often demonstrates what the seller is hoping for by creating a bidding war between people driving the price up above the value of the medals.It's a sad practice and one that can never be stopped by these greed driven sellers. Regards Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I am not a collector. It appears to me that when people started to collect and trade medals and memorabilia, they created a market. It should not be a source of surprise if people take part in this market simply as a commercial venture. What would be more natural than for an antique dealer, say, to buy and sell medals along with his other stock in trade? The medals are simply stock and he would be thought eccentric to say the least if he didn't trade them in such a way as to maximise his profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 It depends to what extent one thinks that ethics/morals should impinge on trade. I suppose slave traders said "It`s not personal, it`s just business". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I never thought of medal sellers as slave traders before. Does that mean as a medal seller, my family will have to say sorry to all the people I sold to (The government will do it for them do doubt ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I didn't make an issue of it in my other post but I was taken a little aback to see the normal practice of selling at a profit described as greed. These medals change hand at a mutually agreeable price. The only intrinsic value is that of the metal as scrap. Other than that, if a price is proposed and accepted, I do not think ' greed ' enters in to the transaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regimentalrogue Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I would not label the normal practice of buying anything with the intent of selling at a profit as greed motivated. That is, after all, how medals which heirs no longer have an interest in, or for which there are no heirs, come into the marketplace to begin with. What I labeled as such was the hypothetical practice of intentionally and knowingly breaking medal groups for the purpose of maximizing those profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Deliberatly splitting groups to make a profit is greed, call it good business if you like but it aint its GREED. Everyone likes a profit but do true collectors split groups? . Trouble is once you sell a group the new owners can and do what they like with them . Ive paid a high price to reunite a Welsh Guards pair and have seen a nice RAF / police group with pic I sold split up. So no I just dont like the practice. Erasing medals is in the same bracket as far as Im concerned, its happening a lot recently just look on EBAY and see all the erased medals. While Im at it fake medals being made and passed off as real truly gets my goat. AH thats better rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I never thought of medal sellers as slave traders before. The point is that you can`t necessarily exclude morals from buying and selling medals. Suppose I bought a 1/7/16 trio, knowing its market value, from a little old lady for peanuts - would you criticize me or is that fair because I`d be profiting from my knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 The point is that you can`t necessarily exclude morals from buying and selling medals. Suppose I bought a 1/7/16 trio, knowing its market value, from a little old lady for peanuts - would you criticize me or is that fair because I`d be profiting from my knowledge? I think one of the points Tom was trying to make was that in the market medals are no different from any other item when sold. In your scenario would it be any more immoral if you paid her peanuts for a valuable antique that you recognised as such ? The fact that you are talking about medals makes no difference to the moral dilemma. Morals aren't written down and can be subjective; what would you do in the scenario you outline ? Or rather what would you see as a morally comfortable outcome ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vista52 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Medal collectors collect medals just like someone else collects model cars or little brown jugs. Medal collectors buy and sell another person's medals. Some medal collectors can't seem to resist the temptation to inject some sort of quasi sanctimonious religious aspect into their hobby. If any of you long term medal collectors have any medals you bought years ago, would you sell them to me for the same price you paid? No, I didn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Medal collectors collect medals just like someone else collects model cars or little brown jugs. Medal collectors buy and sell another person's medals. Some medal collectors can't seem to resist the temptation to inject some sort of quasi sanctimonious religious aspect into their hobby. If any of you long term medal collectors have any medals you bought years ago, would you sell them to me for the same price you paid? No, I didn't think so. Why collector haters need to get nasty is beyond me its one of the reasons I cant be bothered with this forum so much thesdays. The dislike of spliting up medal groups or other artifacts is not sanctimonious or quasi religious it is damaging the historical context of these items. If like the US there is no naming to medals and they are considered near worthless then there is no problem with splitting groups is there?. How about splitting a medal of honor from its citation and other paperwork? . By the way Medals do not always go up in value infact recently they have dipped and yes collectors do have to sell at a loss. I am glad to say I off loaded my American collection a couple of years ago I did however sell groups that should have been together as an item and yes I took a small loss on their sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I think one of the points Tom was trying to make was that in the market medals are no different from any other item when sold. In your scenario would it be any more immoral if you paid her peanuts for a valuable antique that you recognised as such ? The fact that you are talking about medals makes no difference to the moral dilemma. Morals aren't written down and can be subjective; what would you do in the scenario you outline ? Or rather what would you see as a morally comfortable outcome ? I quite agree with your sentiments. In that scenario, I see a morally comfortable outcome as one in which I`d paid her about three quarters of market value. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vista52 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Why collector haters need to get nasty is beyond me its one of the reasons I cant be bothered with this forum so much thesdays. Hi welshdoc, As one who has been here only slightly longer than you, I'm sorry my reply cause you so much angst. Your reply contains a couple of wrong assumptions about me but that's alright. I have 3 medals which I inherited from my grandfather and I would be devastated if I lost them. When they are passed on I have expressed my desire that they stay together. I am a collector of many thing, many of which I'm sure, you would find strange. I was born in London and travel on a British Passport. I'm sorry "that medals do not always go up in value" and you had "a small loss on their sale" and I'm happy you were able to "off load" your American medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I think that RegimentalRogue and WelshDoc have got the measure of this and I agree with them whole heartedly on all points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 I quite agree with your sentiments. In that scenario, I see a morally comfortable outcome as one in which I`d paid her about three quarters of market value. What do you think? Yes, that's about what I'd see as reasonable too but it is a subjective judgment ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vista52 Posted 8 March , 2012 Share Posted 8 March , 2012 A topic like this one always reminds me of one from the heady days on the GWF in 2003/4. I can't find it now but it goes something like this. A lady forum member from S. London goes to a flea market and finds a women selling her late father's stuff. The women's father had been a jeweler and there was a large glass jar full of hundreds of BWM's etc. The forum member sees this and buys the whole lot for next to nothing. She goes home and finds something like 186 BWM's, quite a lot of MM's and some 1914/15 Stars. She makes a post about her good fortune. Straight away people are excited about finding g'dads medals and re-uniting groups. She tells everyone that she will go through them but she is taking her time etc. Gradually her posts become evasive and get less, while forum members posts get more until we are on page 5 with no more messages from the original poster. Could she just post the list of names? Are my granddad's medal one of them people are asking. PM's are sent. A week has gone by since her first post. Then one last post from the original poster. The medals have been sold to a medal dealer (and ex-forum member)...sorry! Went a long way to restoring my faith in mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 Yes, that's about what I'd see as reasonable too but it is a subjective judgment ! Certainly subjective but can anyone suggest a significantly lower but still morally justifiable offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 If you formed a public company to deal in medals you would be legally bound to seek the highest profit in any transaction. I am not sure that there is a moral dimension here. I think we are talking of different things here. Collectors who wish to amass a representative selection of some class of objects. Cap badges, uniforms, guns, medals etc. They will not wish to pay more than they must but the monetary value is secondary. We also have collectors who enjoy buying and selling, trading up and so on. Their collection will tend to be in a state of flux as they exchange, buy and sell. There is a third element, dealers who do not collect but simply buy and sell at a profit. The second type of collector can be hard to differentiate from a dealer. A genuine collector who buys but never sells, may criticise splitting a set of medals but he is confusing the motive for buying them in the first place. Someone who buys intending to resell would be eccentric to say the least not to maximise his profit when he does so. I have often thought it a great pity to see antique books split apart and the prints from them sold singly. Atlases in particular regularly meet this fate. The dealer if reproached will shrug and point to the fact that someone who can afford to buy a print could not afford the book. As seller, he is entitled to bargain for the best price he can get. Medals are no different. The day you set forth to the market place to buy one, you turned the award for service or gallantry into a commodity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 Agreed Tom, The other bonus I "have" possessing two Trios is,if I ever fall into hard financial times,I know I will "make a few bob" selling them for the highest price I can obtain. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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