Tim P Posted 3 March , 2012 Share Posted 3 March , 2012 trawling through various sources, I find confusion about when the Liverpool Scottish lost affiliation with the King's regiment and took on Cameron lineage? For instance, when did the cap badge change (some sources state 1937, some 1908) Was the Forbes kilt replaced by the Cameron one? If anyone is able to give a definitive rundown of how they appeared in ww1, diced glengarry with which badge, what shoulder titles, which kilt and how the hose were configured... I would be grateful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 3 March , 2012 Share Posted 3 March , 2012 Ian Riley of this parish is your man, being very closely involved with that regiment's history. Do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 4 March , 2012 Share Posted 4 March , 2012 Hi Tim I can find, the 10th battalion wore the Kings White Horse badge upon a saltire within a circle with thistles, above the Horse are the words Liverpool Scotish, 1908 to 1937. In 1937 the Liverpool Scotish became part of the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, their cap badge was take from the Cameron Highlanders, with two scrolls flanking St Andrew with Liverpool Scotish. Regards. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 4 March , 2012 Share Posted 4 March , 2012 In case Ian Riley does not spot this thread, here is a link to the regiment's web site: http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/ D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 4 March , 2012 Share Posted 4 March , 2012 As Daggers says, Ian will give you chapter and verse, but attached is a copy of Army Order 189 of 1937 from the Liverpool Scottish Regimental magazine.Which gives details of the change of title and affiliation. The badge changed in 1908 when the 8th ( Scottish ) Volunteer Battalion became the 10th ( Scottish) T.F. Bn. The badge obviously changed again when the battalion became part of the Corps of the Cameron Highlanders P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 4 March , 2012 Share Posted 4 March , 2012 Hang on I'm cleaning my specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 25 March , 2012 Share Posted 25 March , 2012 (edited) Gerwyn, I have only just seen this thread and am not in a position to reply fully and authoritatively immediately. You are probably going to need to speak at length to Dennis Reeves, the expert on Liverpool Scottish uniform. The shoulder title position is quite complicated. The kilt has always been nominally Forbes but the Forbes used in WW1 was lighter than the Forbes used in modern times which is almost the government Black Watch tartan with a white sett at seven inches (similar to Gordon but with white instead of yellow). There is probably some very technical differences in thread count. The badge in use in WW1 is on the website (shortly to be updated) adopted 1908, and is a saltire surmounted by the King's 'Horse of Hanover' , surrounded by a wreath of thistles etc but with the top showing 'Liverpool Scottish'. There is another badge, very similar, used as a sporran badge from 1900 which is surmounted by the words 'Scottish Liverpool' (a word swap about which I have my own theories) - this is similar to the badge that appears on the Liverpool Scottish Stone at Ypres/Ieper, a piece of masonary that first saw the light of day as the keystone above the main door to the Liverpool Scottish Fraser Street barracks in 1904 This was replaced by the Cameron version (and appropriate QOCH shoulder titles) in 1937. The Forbes kilt remained in use as the film of the Colours Presentation at Goodison Park in 1938 and countless wartime wedding photos show. I think (from memory) the battalion may have used the Cameron kilt when on garrison duty in Gibraltar during 1946 (probably for supply reasons) although I think the effort would have been made to get the Pipe Band into Forbes. Headdress after WW2 seems to have changed a few times. The original Army Order was to name the Liverpool Scottish as a numbered (TA) battalion of the QOCH. This was changed and the designation became The Liverpool Scottish, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (latter becoming 1st and 2nd battalions on the doubling of the TA as war approached). Thus the Colours presented in 1938 and now laid up in Liverpool Town Hall show 'The Liverpool Scottish' in the centre roundel rather than a battalion number. Ian Edited 25 March , 2012 by Ian Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 25 March , 2012 Share Posted 25 March , 2012 For instance, when did the cap badge change (some sources state 1937, some 1908) Hi Ian I was giving details on their cap badge only, 1908 and up to 1937, and in 1937 "Liverpool Scottish lost affiliation with the King's regiment and took on Cameron lineage" if my information is incorrect, I would like to know . Quote; Scottish uniform. The shoulder title position is quite complicated. The kilt has always been nominally Forbes but the Forbes used in WW1 was lighter than the Forbes used in modern times which is almost the government Black Watch tartan with a white sett at seven inches (similar to Gordon but with white instead of yellow). There is probably some very technical differences in thread count. The badge in use in WW1 is on the website (shortly to be updated) adopted 1908, and is a saltire surmounted by the King's 'Horse of Hanover' , surrounded by a wreath of thistles etc but with the top showing 'Liverpool Scottish'. There is another badge, very similar, used as a sporran badge from 1900 which is surmounted by the words Scottish Liverpool (a word swap about which I have my own theories). Regards Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 25 March , 2012 Share Posted 25 March , 2012 (edited) Sorry, I may have confused the issue by putting information about our badges into two or three paragraphs mixed in with other narrative The original badge of the 8th (Scottish) Volunteer Battalion KLR 1900-1908 was a circlet containing the Rocking Horse and (if I recall) 8th Volunteer Battalion round the circle The rather ornate oval badge surmounted by a crown and showing '8th (Volunteer) Battalion that appears on e-Bay with boring frequency advertised as a cap-badge is NOT such a thing; it is an officer's cross belt badge for full dress and will almost certainly be a modern restrike. Few were made and most in hall-marked silver. There is, however, a rare silver bonnet badge used by officers on their feather bonnet only 1900-1908 and very probably subsequently This changed in 1908 when the Liverpool Scottish became the 10th (Scottish) Battalion, The King's (Liverpool Regiment TF, to the Rocking Horse on the saltire with 'Liverpool Scottish' above. Badges with 'Scottish Liverpool' are sporran badges and not bonnet badges. There is some photographic evidence of soldiers wearing the old rifle volunteer badges at the beginning of the war (possibly because of a shortage of the correct badge) This badge remained in use until 1937 when it was replaced by the Liverpool Scottish form of the QOCH badge with St Andrew. This remained in use until 1967 (and by the cadets until the formation of the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment in 2006) The Liverpool Scottish Cameron badge was worn with the blue hackle of the Cameron Highlanders post-WW2, I think from the time it was taken into use by the QOCH On the formation of the T&AVR in 1967, V (The Liverpool Scottish) Company of the 51st Highland Volunteers used the Highland Volunteer badge (based on the Highland Brigade staff badge) with the blue plume and on a patch of Forbes tartan when worn with a TOS with the sett runing centrally vertically and horizontally. This continued until V (The Liverpool Scottish) Company returned to the King's Regiment as part of 5th/8th Bn The King's Regiment TA in about 1993 (date needs verifying). The 1908 pattern was then officially taken into use. This continued until the formation of the Duke of Lancaster's Regiment when that badge (again worn with the blue hackle and on Forbes tartan) was taken into use on the TOS. I am only the tea boy. May I suggest that you e-mail via our website and I will ask Dennis Reeves, our Honorary Curator to write back to you. He has forty years of experience on the ins and outs of Liverpool Scottish badges and shoulder titles. He does not however, operate on the GWF. An e-bay search on Liverpool Scottish does not take too many days to come up with Liverpool Scottish portrait photos. They were incidentally, pretty keen in WW1 on leather 'football' buttons rather than GS buttons. The original poster wanted detail of how they looked in WW1. There are other details that might be added, 55th (West Lancashire) Division badges, divisional tactical recognition flashes and the unique Liverpool Scottish bomber's badge on some soldiers. Yours Ian Edited 25 March , 2012 by Ian Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 25 March , 2012 Share Posted 25 March , 2012 Hi Ian For only a tea boy, you are great Mate , my eyes are , nice reading your information., all the best. Cheers. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 26 March , 2012 Share Posted 26 March , 2012 Some Liverpool Scottish badges from my collection a number of which are mentioned in Ian`s post. P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 26 March , 2012 Share Posted 26 March , 2012 Badges from the period when the Liverpool Scottish became part of the Cameron Highlanders and later. P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 March , 2012 Share Posted 26 March , 2012 FWIW (and totally off-topic), I recall the Crucified Moose badge with blue hackle being worn in the 70's: I was in G (London Scottish) Company, 1/51 Highland, and the Liverpool Jocks were V (Liverpool Scottish) Company. The T o' S had a Forbes backing to the badge, while we (of course) had the Hodden. (I might also add the fear they instilled in a young Black Watch Officer cadet at a Battalion smoker in Germany in '79, but that would be way off topic and possibly libellous ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim P Posted 30 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2012 Many, many thanks for the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 30 March , 2012 Share Posted 30 March , 2012 FWIW (and totally off-topic), I recall the Crucified Moose badge with blue hackle being worn in the 70's: I was in G (London Scottish) Company, 1/51 Highland, and the Liverpool Jocks were V (Liverpool Scottish) Company. The T o' S had a Forbes backing to the badge, while we (of course) had the Hodden. (I might also add the fear they instilled in a young Black Watch Officer cadet at a Battalion smoker in Germany in '79, but that would be way off topic and possibly libellous ) Afearing northern officer cadets?. How untypical of the southern companies but V (The Liverpool Scottish) Company, if you don't mind me saying. 1979 Paderborn? Hildesheimer Wald? Off topic. No more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johno7439 Posted 30 March , 2012 Share Posted 30 March , 2012 P.B - Please forgive my ignorance, I have a London Scottish Capbadge that was my Grandfathers (with the same tartan backing), which looks exactly the same as the Liverpool Scottish Badge, top right of your second post. Were the two regiments connected? Your's aye Ewan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbrydon Posted 30 March , 2012 Share Posted 30 March , 2012 Ewan, No connection between the Liverpool and London Scottish. The London Scottish wore Elcho Grey kilts etc and was not a tartan in the generally accepted way. i.e. it was a single colour without a pattern. P.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 30 March , 2012 Share Posted 30 March , 2012 Ewan, As P.B. says, the London Scottish backing is the Elcho or Hodden Grey (a sort of dusty pink though I suspect that will bring down the wrath of the London Jocks on my head). The tartan backing in P.B's example is Forbes (you can just see the horizontal and white verticals of the sett on the 'green' backing). I may have misunderstood what you wrote, Ewan, but a London Scottish badge is pretty certain to show their rampant lion and the motto 'Strike Sure' rather than St Andrew who appears on the Liverpool Scottish version of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders badge from 1937 until it went out of use with the Liverpool Scottish TA in 1967 (continuing with the ACF until about 1993) and as shown in the top right of P.B's second post. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johno7439 Posted 31 March , 2012 Share Posted 31 March , 2012 Many thanks for the information Ian, had a better look at the cap badge in question and fired a few questions off to my Dad, and it is indeed a Liverpool Scottish and not a London Scottish Badge I have (better clean my glasses!). My Grandfather served with the Cameronians during ww2 and joined the TA in the 1950's. Your's Aye Ewan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PA Jock Posted 15 November , 2012 Share Posted 15 November , 2012 My grandfather served with the Liverpool Scottish from 1914-18. And I have built up a collection of cap badges in honour of his service. Ian Riley's work is to be much commended. And the pictures below are very helpful One question I have is did the Liverpool Scottish strike a cap badge in brass during WW1? From an exiled Liverpudlian in PA USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PA Jock Posted 20 November , 2012 Share Posted 20 November , 2012 Just want to highlight whatt an excellent resource and impulse for research to me are the collection images posted by pbrydon Many Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 25 November , 2012 Share Posted 25 November , 2012 PA, the answer is NO, they did NOT have a 'brass' version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puddlemuddle Posted 13 September , 2015 Share Posted 13 September , 2015 Digging up this topic once more. So did the 55th wear the rise in there upper sleeves by the shoulder seam during WW1? So there would be the rise on each arm followed by the brigade flash underneath it? If so did they still see the brigade flash below the collar as well? Thanks. Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2015 Share Posted 13 September , 2015 Digging up this topic once more. So did the 55th wear the rise in there upper sleeves by the shoulder seam during WW1? So there would be the rise on each arm followed by the brigade flash underneath it? If so did they still see the brigade flash below the collar as well? Thanks. Chad "55th", "rise"? You are not using familiar terms so it is hard to understand what you mean or are asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 13 September , 2015 Share Posted 13 September , 2015 55th Division rose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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