Royal Naval Armoured Car Division Russia

[Desmond7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/topics/war/rnacd_index.shtml

This link may be of interest .. photo albums etc

[mcassell]

Very interesting thread that I came through via 'Battersea' - my dad, my grandmother and great-grand parents were from there - and I attended Battersea Grammar School! I digress - I wonder if anyone has any information on 80101 Sergeant Walter William Melrose - born Battersea 1892 - who won the MM with Dunsterforce at the Volkan grizhnoi on 26 August 1918. He served previously with the RNAS in Russia (F1397 POM RNAS) but little info in the Czar's British Squadron.

[charlesmessenger]

Gunner Parr

I can tell you a little about Melrose. He was a motor mechanic in civil life and his address on enlistment was given as 16 Townsend Road, Southall, Middlesex. He ppears tp have served in Gwerman SW Africa, but joined the RNACD in 1914 and served in Belium and France in 1915. He was with No 3 Squadron in Russia and was awarded the St George Medal 4th Class for his perforance as a Maxim machine gunner in the fighting arounf the village of Pav Koti during 19 Aug - 1 Sep 1916. His fire and that of another Maxim gunner was effective in suppressing enemy fire and foprcing him to withdraw from his trenches.

Charles M

[centurion]

Gunner Parr

I can tell you a little about Melrose. He was a motor mechanic in civil life and his address on enlistment was given as 16 Townsend Road, Southall, Middlesex. He ppears tp have served in Gwerman SW Africa, but joined the RNACD in 1914 and served in Belium and France in 1915. He was with No 3 Squadron in Russia and was awarded the St George Medal 4th Class for his perforance as a Maxim machine gunner in the fighting arounf the village of Pav Koti during 19 Aug - 1 Sep 1916. His fire and that of another Maxim gunner was effective in suppressing enemy fire and foprcing him to withdraw from his trenches.

Charles M

I wonder if he served with the armoured cars used in German S W Africa.

[mcassell]

Thanks so much for the information and the leads! I now know the Russian medal (I have Melrose's medal group though minus the 1914-15 Star) was awarded for Russia and not Dunsterforce which I had assumed but could not confirm. Following your lead I have just found his RN paper confirming RNAS/RNACD service and his Army pension forms which, according to his statement, he served in German South West Africa from March to September 1915 and France from September to December 1915 before going to Russia. Attached is an enlarged photograph of Melrose from a larger group picture of C Section DUNCARS. Great help!

[rnascars]

Hi All,

I have just joined the forum and this is my first posting, I just hope all goes well and its in the right section?

I am trying to find any information as to when the S.S. Dundrennan first set sail from Liverpool with a cargo of armoured cars bound for Russia?

What is of interest is that I have an album with over 90 of photographs, none of which are captioned, only a duplicated folio size sheet with captions and numerals which refer to the photographs on the album pages.

I am trying to establish the date when these photographs were likely taken? There are no dates mentioned on the folio sheet, only references to Lt. Commander Soames, Lt. Hedge, Major Charles including petty officers: White, Thirgood, Walker, Francis, Sewell, Chilvers & Sandifer.

Any help to try and establish the date of these photographs would be most appreciated

Regards

Andrew

P.S. I have enclose a photographs from this album, with the appropriate caption: Arrival in BROVARIE of armour from PROSCUROFF

[sotonmate]

From the Beeb link above it seems that late 1915 was the time these vehicles were shipped to Russia. You may need to read the ship files in WO25 at Kew for information,there is a system of filing papers for ships leaving UK ports for overseas and which were engaged by the military to carry men and stores. They are filed by date (no port sequences) and each file covers around 3 months of shipments. If you consider it worthwhile to read the appropriate file(s) the references are:

WO25/3537 1 Oct to 31 Dec 1915,and just in case it was earlier or later,

WO25/3536 1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915,

WO25/3544 1 Jan to 31 Mar 1916.

Search time about 20 mins per file,so long as you are not distracted by something you didn't know about and decide to read about it !

[RobL]

Regarding Rolls Royces in Russia, i've got at least one photo of a Rolls Royce armoured car in that campaign

[rnascars]

From the Beeb link above it seems that late 1915 was the time these vehicles were shipped to Russia. You may need to read the ship files in WO25 at Kew for information,there is a system of filing papers for ships leaving UK ports for overseas and which were engaged by the military to carry men and stores. They are filed by date (no port sequences) and each file covers around 3 months of shipments. If you consider it worthwhile to read the appropriate file(s) the references are:

WO25/3537 1 Oct to 31 Dec 1915,and just in case it was earlier or later,

WO25/3536 1 Jul to 30 Sep 1915,

WO25/3544 1 Jan to 31 Mar 1916.

Search time about 20 mins per file,so long as you are not distracted by something you didn't know about and decide to read about it !

Sotonmate

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction, I will check this out.

[rnascars]

Thought this photograph may be of interest to the forum?

This one is captioned: 'Austrian prisoners pushing off a PIERCE ARROW with Lt. HEDGE steering'. and was probably taken at Petrograd?

Maybe someone could pin point the date Lt. Hedge was around at the time taking care of deliveries, also I am trying to identify the owner of this album. Its most likely to have been one of the named petty officers in an earlier posting of mine?

If any forum members are interest in these photographs, I am prepared to scan and share the contents of the album with interested parties

Regards

Andrew

[ghchurcher]

_{Hi yes just to be clear he (Naylor) was awarded the Cross 4th Class of the Order of St George, rather than the Order of St George 4th Class (which Lancashire Fusilier's photo illustrates) - which in Imperial Russian terms is a very high award, and very rarely awarded to British servicemen. Very nice nonetheless. Some years ago I recall seeing, still with the family, the CIE DSO and Bar with Order of St George 1st Class (I think it was) to Lockers Lampsons 2ic of the RNAS Tzars Squadron Armoured Cars (his name slips my mind). Sadly they would not part with the group !!}

[horatio2]

_{Hi yes just to be clear he was awarded the Cross 4th Class of the Order of St George, rather than the Order of St George 4th Class (which lancashire Fusilier's photo illustrates) - which in Imperial Russian terms is a very high award, and very rarely awarded to British servicemen. Very nice nonetheless. Some years ago I recall seeing, still with the family, the CIE DSO and Bar with Order of St George 1st Class (I think it was) to Lockers Sampsons 2ic of the RNAS Tzars Squadron Armorued Cars. Sadly they would not part with the group !!}

I cannot read this post. Could you edit to increase the font size, please.

[SiegeGunner]

_{... to Lockers Sampsons 2ic of the RNAS Tzars Squadron Armoured Cars (his name slips my mind).}

Oliver Locker-Lampson or Charles Rumney Samson .... but not a blend of both ...

[PRC]

There is a picture of Edward Naylor on the Norfolk County Picture Archive:-

http://norlink.norfolk.gov.uk/02_Catalogue/02_013_PictureTitleInformation.aspx?rcn=NP00010119&&displayType=2

There are notes that go with the picture that read

Born at Alderham, Hertfordshire, 25th June 1898, the son of Henry and Jane Naylor, Petty Officer Naylor enlisted 10th January 1917. He gained the Russian Order of the Cross of St. george. He died at Gillingham Hospital from jaundice after receiving wounds in action in Russia, 29th August 1917. This photograph was donated by his father.

I've recently been doing some research on the War Memorials at Overstrand. These take the form of a memorial in the churchyard of St Martin, a carved wooden panel inside the church and then in front of the panel a Book of Remembrance with a small potted biography of each name listed. Edwards page reads:-

Son of Henry and Jane Naylor. Born at Letchmore Heath, Aldenham, Herts, June 25th 1898. Educated at Harrow Weald and Overstrand Schools. Joined Commander Locker Lampson’s Armoured Car Brigade, Jan 10th 1917. Wounded in Russia, July 1st 1917. Died at the Royal Naval Hospital, Chatham, August 29th 1917. Buried in Overstrand Churchyard.

(Being wounded in Galicia on the 1st July and back in the UK on the 22nd August seems more likely than wounded on the 10th and back on the 22nd - I suspect the 10th August was the date the award received what ever was the Russian equivalent of the London Gazette !)

His headstone in the churchyard simply states:-

In ever loving memory of

E H A Naylor

Of the Russian Armoured

Car Squadron, Only son of

H & J Naylor, Wounded in Galicia 1st July

Died at the Royal Naval Hospital, Chatham

(Illegible) August 1917 Aged 19 years

Another Overstrand man was also associated with the unit - Herbert Thomas Church travelled out to Russia and joined up with them on the 7th January 1918. He was with them on the retreat into Persia and subsequently transferred to Dunsterforce when the Russian Armoured Car Squadron was taken over by the Army. Sadly Herbert too would not see Norfolk again - the Book of Remembrance records that he ws Killed in Action, North of Baku, Russia on the 15th October 1918.

[sl0771]

Thought this photograph may be of interest to the forum?

This one is captioned: 'Austrian prisoners pushing off a PIERCE ARROW with Lt. HEDGE steering'. and was probably taken at Petrograd?

Maybe someone could pin point the date Lt. Hedge was around at the time taking care of deliveries, also I am trying to identify the owner of this album. Its most likely to have been one of the named petty officers in an earlier posting of mine?

If any forum members are interest in these photographs, I am prepared to scan and share the contents of the album with interested parties

Regards

Andrew

Hello. My name is Vladislav. I am from Russia. I am very interested in the history of cars in the Russian Imperii. Could You contact me at:

sl0771@mail.ru Thanks in Advance.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

You mentioned Lt Sholl.

I have this;

SHOLL Guy Trevarton 135 L/Cpl 10 LHR A Sqn (G) disch to British Navy prom Sub/Lt RNVR went to Russia as part of Cdr O. Locker-Lampsons RNAS Armoured Cars in Armenia, Roumania and Persia as Maj MGC Dunsterforce DSC & Russian Order of St Anne 2nd class with swords + 3rd Class with Swords and Bow Russian Order of St Stanislas 2nd class with swords

Another aussie was;

WALFORD Patrick Richard Stewart 224 Cpl 10 LHR B Sqn A Troop? WIA 28-5-15 R/arm & leg bomb at Quinns Post to L/Sgt 8-15 (G) disch to British Navy prom Sub/Lt RNVR went to Russia as part of Cdr O. Locker- Lampsons RNAS Armoured Cars in Armenia, Roumania and Persia (British 201 London Airline Telegraph Co Royal Engineers 2 years)

Cheers

S.B

[niddev]

My Great Uncle Griffith Pugh Evans served with Locker Lampson in France, Russia and Rumania . We know little about it but he does not appear in the book The Czars British Squadron. Family history relates that he was at Eton with Locker Lampson, was at the Bar in Middle Temple before the war but could not join the regular army as he had polio as a boy.Family stories relate that he was very fond of the Queen of Romania (along with many others) and that he drove a train out of Russia during the revolution filled with white Russians - the carriages had " keep out, diseased passengers" to stop anyone looking too hard. His uncle Sir James Hills Johnes was a great supporter of Locker Lampson and visited the unit in France and also saw them off to Russia from Liverpool. would be interesting to find out which unit he was in in Russia and Rumania and I believe Turkey

[PRC]

There is this on a website about Llanbadarn Churchyard

Griffith Pugh Evans was a son of Sir Griffith and Lady Evans. He was educated at Magdalen College, Oxford, where he gained a honours degree in History, and he was called to the Bar at Lincoln's Inn. He served as a Justice of the Peace on the Llanbadarn Bench for 42 years. As a young lad of 13 he was struck by a paralysis which he overcame to lead an active life. A keen huntsman with the Gogerddan Hounds he was an accomplished horseman and a lover of country sports especially fishing. In the First World War he saw active service with armoured cars in France, Belgium, Russia and Rumania and was awarded the Croix de Guerre with Palms, the Order of Stanislaus and Officer of the Crown (Russia) and the Chevalier of the Star of Rumania. After the war he became a farmer at Home Farm, Lovesgrove, and took a keen interest in the improvement of agriculture. A supporter of agricultural Shows he was nearly killed at Talybont Show in 1938 when an upturned carriage drawn by a frightened horse smashed through a table on which he was leaning and he broke his thigh falling off a horse at the age of 64. A supporter of Llanbadarn Chu­rch he was also a staunch Conservative. He was President of the Trefeurig Branch of the British Legion and a member of the Governing Body of the Church in Wales, of the Territorial Army Association and of the Parish Council.

http://www.llanbadarnchurchyard.org.uk/Section%20E.htm

A brief summary of his Naval Career can be downloaded from the National Archive for the princely sum of £3.30. :-)

Its held under reference ADM 337/120/1

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8643707#imageViewerLink

[dsowerby]

Hi All,

I came upon this thread as i'm trying to research a man who, until today, i thought had just served in the Essex Volunteer Artillery, followed by the S.A.C., his name is Edwin Robert Brew Gardner, and it turns out that he was a P.O.M. in the RNAS Armoured Car Division, numbered F2924. I got his ADM 188 service sheet from Ancestry and it mentions foreign Service in France, followed by Russia. The date is difficult to read but it looks like November 1915. He was discharged and on his way back to South Africa by the end of 1916 so i know he didn't serve later than that.

Is there anything that can be gleaned about him or his service? I have no idea if he was awarded anything other than his 1914-15 trio - apart from his QSA for SAC service - and don't know what squadron(s) he may have served in?

My area is the Royal Artillery so will admit to being a bit clueless here!

Cheers,

David

[Nelson1805]

There is a picture of Edward Naylor on the Norfolk County Picture Archive:-

http://norlink.norfolk.gov.uk/02_Catalogue/02_013_PictureTitleInformation.aspx?rcn=NP00010119&&displayType=2

There are notes that go with the picture that read

Born at Alderham, Hertfordshire, 25th June 1898, the son of Henry and Jane Naylor, Petty Officer Naylor enlisted 10th January 1917. He gained the Russian Order of the Cross of St. george. He died at Gillingham Hospital from jaundice after receiving wounds in action in Russia, 29th August 1917. This photograph was donated by his father.

I've recently been doing some research on the War Memorials at Overstrand. These take the form of a memorial in the churchyard of St Martin, a carved wooden panel inside the church and then in front of the panel a Book of Remembrance with a small potted biography of each name listed. Edwards page reads:-

Son of Henry and Jane Naylor. Born at Letchmore Heath, Aldenham, Herts, June 25th 1898. Educated at Harrow Weald and Overstrand Schools. Joined Commander Locker Lampson’s Armoured Car Brigade, Jan 10th 1917. Wounded in Russia, July 1st 1917. Died at the Royal Naval Hospital, Chatham, August 29th 1917. Buried in Overstrand Churchyard.

(Being wounded in Galicia on the 1st July and back in the UK on the 22nd August seems more likely than wounded on the 10th and back on the 22nd - I suspect the 10th August was the date the award received what ever was the Russian equivalent of the London Gazette !)

His headstone in the churchyard simply states:-

In ever loving memory of

E H A Naylor

Of the Russian Armoured

Car Squadron, Only son of

H & J Naylor, Wounded in Galicia 1st July

Died at the Royal Naval Hospital, Chatham

(Illegible) August 1917 Aged 19 years

Edward-Naylor-Headstone-Ove.jpg

Another Overstrand man was also associated with the unit - Herbert Thomas Church travelled out to Russia and joined up with them on the 7th January 1918. He was with them on the retreat into Persia and subsequently transferred to Dunsterforce when the Russian Armoured Car Squadron was taken over by the Army. Sadly Herbert too would not see Norfolk again - the Book of Remembrance records that he ws Killed in Action, North of Baku, Russia on the 15th October 1918.

I note the reference to Herbert Thomas Church being recorded as a member of Dunsterforce and 'killed in action north of Baku on 15th October 1918'.

It is my understanding that the Dunsterforce withdrew from Baku on 14th September 1918 i.e. a month before the date of Church's demise. Can anyone shed any light on the differing timescales - for example were there detachments, stragglers or prisoners left behind after the withdrawal?

My late Grandfather was a member of the Dunsterforce and I can recall him clearly stating that but for their withdrawal from Baku on 14th Sept it was very likely that the force would be over-run on the following day. The prospects for any stragglers would have been bleak.

[PRC]

I ran into a bit of a brick wall when I tried to find out more details.

The book of remembrance in St Martin, Overstrand, simply states he "Joined Commander Locker Lampson’s Armoured Car Brigade, January 7th 1918. Sergeant. Killed in action, North of Baku, Russia, 15th October 1918."

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission web-site has him as "Machine Gun Corps (Motors) 6th Armoured Car Coy. attd. Dunster Force"

The Imperial War Museum has the Order of the Day for Dunsterforce, dated 1st October 1918, announcing the dissolution of Dunsterforce.
It seems the same units would form part of the Army of Occupation at Baku and the surrounding oil fields following the Armistice.

An online version of the account of The Adventures of Dunsterforce by Major-General L C Dunsterville can be seen here

https://archive.org/details/adventuresofduns00dunsrich

With all the confusion of the time it may never be possible to know if Herbert died at the hands of Turks, Russian (Bolsheviks) or locals looking for independence or just to make some money from possession of the oilfields - eerie sense of deja vu,

regards,

Peter

[Nelson1805]

Hello Peter,

Many thanks for your reply regarding Herbert Thomas Church of Dunsterforce.

It seems that the circumstances of his demise will remain a mystery, for now.

I am aware of the recent work undertaken to commemorate Edward Naylor, Herbert Church and the other men from Overstrand who were lost in WW1. It is a great credit to all concerned.

regards

Mike

[Guest IceBear]

First posting to this forum but hope I can add some detail from the book Iron Fist by Bryan Perrett. The Russian Armoured Car Division RNAS under Commander Locker Lampson embarked at Liverpool and sailed for Archangel on 4th December 1915 but was unable to land because the White Sea had frozen over. They eventualy arrived in May 1916. It consisted of thrre fighting squadrons, a headquarters and administrative squadron. Equipment list includes one Rols Royce and 32 Lanchester armoured cars, one hybrid Seabrook-Pierce-Arrow, two Pierce-Arrow 'Heavies', three towed thee-pounder guns, 44 motorcycles and a 45 vehicle transport echelon. On 19th December they were reinforced with six armoured Model-T Fords to replace losses. A total of 20 St Georges Crosses and 26 St Georges Medals were awarded in recognition of 30th November 1916 to 5th December 1917 for actions in Romania supporting Russian counter-attacks following the collapse of the Romanian armies. The Imperial War Museum Archive has 3 images of the medal warad ceremony on12th March 1917 Q109762, -63, -64.

[MaureenE]

I came across this listing of Russian awards to members of the Royal Navy Armoured Car Division, transcribed from  The National Archives, Kew, when looking for something else.

 

ADM 171/74 ; Decorations awarded to ratings of British Armoured Car Division in Russia.

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/RNACD/RNACD_Russian_Awards1.html

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

 

[ForeignGong]

Thanks Maureen this is fantastic

I have the names but not the citations / recommendations

 

Cheers

Peter