Regimental police

[AndrewThornton]

I have several photographs of Suffolk Regimental Policemen through the ages but this one is causing some head-scratching.

It is part of a photograph showing a Recruiter with two young recruits at the Depot Gate between the wars but I would love to know what this Corporal has on his cuff-band.

Have any of you come acrross Great War brassards with similar markings? Any ideas?

If he is a Corporal, it may well be PC - for Provost Corporal. In know some battalions have used (and still use) RP - Regimental Police, PC - Provost Corporal and PS - Provost Sergeant on their Regimental Police brassards.

[Dave1418]

Just had a look at the picture posted by frogsmile on the 26 March which is of a group of RP of the middlesex regiment. I have this as an original post card, the reverse is hand written in pencil '' With compliments from Cpl Russell 01.10.18''. Cpl Russell being in the centre of the front row. I would be interested to hear if their is anything written on the rear of the other card

regards

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

I have several photographs of Suffolk Regimental Policemen through the ages but this one is causing some head-scratching.

It is part of a photograph showing a Recruiter with two young recruits at the Depot Gate between the wars but I would love to know what this Corporal has on his cuff-band.

Have any of you come acrross Great War brassards with similar markings? Any ideas?

He is the Provost Corporal (PC), an abbreviated title omitting 'Regimental' that became popular in some units. After WW1 more and more units placed a collar or cap badge between the letters and some others started to use short lengths of regimental stable belts as the arm band. In this case you can see the Suffolk Regiment castle in the older two turret version between the letters.

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to note but I have photographs of several RP's and MFP's and the armband is worn in different places on each, some just above the cuff and others on the arm above the elbow. There was a discussion item regarding the ''red cap'' cover. Again the photos I have show the later date (economy tunic and trench cap being worn) do a cap cover but the earlier one do not. Likewise MFP's were usually issued with the 03 pattern leather belt, pistol holder(long or short) ammunition pouch and cross strap. The pistol being either the long or short barrelled variety and not always a Webley.

Hope this doesn't add too much to the general confusion on the topic

The cap covers were used very early on by the MFP/MMP and readily distinguished them from the RPs formed within infantry battalions. There were also blue cap covers used by the Docks Police, formed largely from MFP and intended to crack down on pilfering by stevedores and other opportunist thieves.

As regards confusion it is important to understand that WW1 was the period when military police (of all types) duties and roles evolved as the army went from its pre war regular strength to the massive citizen army by 1919.

[Tim P]

I am very keen to know what practice was adopted by regimental military police of the royal Warwickshire regiment, what letters,what colours and where on which arm. clearly regimental colours were used by some units whilst others used a simplified black on white or unbleached linen or similar.

Anyone able to state what the Warwicks preferred?

[Muerrisch]

As an aside to the very useful above:

how on earth did an armband/ brassard/ armlet on the lower cuff stay on?

Period issue armbands come with a variety of fastenings, and adjustable circumference ......... which should do for the upper arm, but one smartly executed salute [either arm until late in war] would make a cuff band fly off unless uncomfortably tight, or sewn on, or hooks and eyes or ...............?.

Regarding the evolution of armbands MP RMP RP, the armband thread and Joe Sweeney's notes may provide some help.

[millie231]

Enjoyed reading this thread. I am trying to find out about my Great Grandfather who was a RMP in the Reserves. He was based in Shrewsbury and I think the attached photo is pre-1912. Can anybody shed any light on what his role in a Reserve Unit would have been as opposed to the Regular army? Also armbands worn on opposing arms , but both men carrying the sticks!

[4thGordons]

Doesn't answer your question, but I don't think that is a pre war picture.

Two of the men have on simplified pattern service dress jackets (no pocket pleats and no rifle patches on shoulders) which would usually indicate it is a wartime image as these were introduced in 1914 and appear to be most common in 1915/16 pictures appearing less often later and disappearing quickly post war.

Chris

[millie231]

Thanks for your interest. I have dated it pre war as I "think" my great granddad on the left died in 1912. I will check this date and get back.

millie x

[Muerrisch]

The jackets without pleats give a "not before late 1914" date I assure you.

[millie231]

Thanks . I know you are right, this is def a war time pic! Just need to find out when he did die! Think it should be 1921 not 1912 (numbers round the wrong way!)

[FROGSMILE]

Enjoyed reading this thread. I am trying to find out about my Great Grandfather who was a RMP in the Reserves. He was based in Shrewsbury and I think the attached photo is pre-1912. Can anybody shed any light on what his role in a Reserve Unit would have been as opposed to the Regular army? Also armbands worn on opposing arms , but both men carrying the sticks!

Millie, the photo is notable in showing two older men and two youngsters of the King's Shropshire Light Infantry (KSLI) and as you say that your GGF was a reserve I am guessing that he is the man with the medal ribbons seated at right. Generally each regiment had two Regular Battalions, one or two Reserve Battalions ( Special Reserve and Extra Reserve - before 1908 Militia battalions), and several Territorial Force Battalions (part-timers).

It was common for some of the men who had completed the Regular part of their contract ('engagement' in Army terms) to spend some portion of the Reserve part by 're-enlisting' in one of the one/two Reserve Battalions (Special and Extra), as this gave them better remuneration (cash retainer). These older men, who could ordinarily stay until the age of 42 (longer in wartime), would complete their annual three to four week camp and assist with the training of the other element of the Special Reserve, younger men (often rustic teenagers) who were also undergoing their annual training.

The Reserve Battalions (usually 3rd and 4th) were organised in a similar way to the Regulars, and broken down into companies (up to 8 before 1915) and a Battalion HQ. Within the latter was the guardroom staff, which comprised a Provost Sgt, a Corporal (or sometimes Lance Corporal) and 5 or 6 Privates. The function of these men was the exact same as explained earlier in this thread at post No22. They were known as the Regimental (Military) Police Staff. Much later the term 'military' was dropped to avoid confusion with the newly formed Corps of Military Police.

The NCOs of the R(M)P staff usually wore the arm band on the opposite arm to the privates, and you can see that with the Lance Corporal in your photo. This was the most common practice, but each regiment could adopt its own preference, as long as it was 'uniform' within the unit. I suspect that the arm bands (worn low down near the cuff at that time), were secured with safety pins (or similar) through the cloth on the underside. The role of R(M)P was often one well suited for the 'steady', older soldiers who could (usually) set a good example to the youngsters.

Upon mobilisation, the Reserve units were formed up (mobilised) at the regimental depot (Shrewsbury for KSLI) and continued training individual reservists while guarding vulnerable points in Britain. The Special/Extra Reserve units remained in Britain throughout WW1, but many of their peripatetic rank and file did not, since the object of the special reserve was to supply drafts of replacements (the youngsters in your photo) for the overseas units of the regiment. The older Reservists gradually retired or were moved to other roles, and the battalions became training units pure and simple.

[millie231]

Frogsmile,

Thank you so much for taking the time to educate a complete Military novice! I now have a greater understanding of how the Reservists worked and thus how it worked in my family.

With your obvious wealth of knowledge could you take a look at a later picture of my Grandfather. Away I know from the RMP thread, but he has crossed flags on his sleeve. Also don't know if this is regular army or Reservist. Think it is 1920 ish .

Thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge!

Millie x

[Dave1418]

Hi Millie,

sorry to disappoint but the cap is what was commonly know as the Gor-blimey and dates the phote at around 1915 (soft peak and top with a neck / ear protector for inclement weather which was fastened over the top with thecloth straps you can see) . These caps were only worn by line regts for a short period before the trench cap came into being. The Gor-blimey was later used by the RA etc and the often had the flaps cut off. The crossed flags indicate that he is a signaller.

regards

Dave

[millie231]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the info. I am a little confused as the group photo earlier in this thread would have to be dated between June 1914 and January 1915, after which my Grandfather went to France. He is the young man seated cross-legged at the front aged 17. He definitely looks older in the solo photo, and they don't look like they were taken at the same time. Also he married in 1920 , and is wearing a wedding ring in the photo.

Could it have been an old fashioned studio prop? What does RA stand for who used the cap later?

Millie

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

Thank you so much for taking the time to educate a complete Military novice! I now have a greater understanding of how the Reservists worked and thus how it worked in my family.

With your obvious wealth of knowledge could you take a look at a later picture of my Grandfather. Away I know from the RMP thread, but he has crossed flags on his sleeve. Also don't know if this is regular army or Reservist. Think it is 1920 ish .

Thank you so much again for sharing your knowledge!

Millie x

This appears to be a more recent photo Millie, around 1915 (or possibly later), as his head dress is the 'Gor Blimey' type of trench cap that was introduced in 1915, after the bitterly cold winter of 1914, when the men had suffered for want of more practical head wear. In 1916 the men were issued with steel helmets with felted woollen 'cap comforters' underneath for trench wear, but caps were often still worn on the occasions when the unit was out of the line and well to the rear 'in reserve'.

He is a regimental signaller and that is marked by the crossed flags on his arm and what appear to be coloured sleeves fitted over his shoulder straps. These were probably a light shade of blue as that was the colour used to identify signallers and the shoulder straps would have made him stand out in a crowd. It later became more common for an armband to be worn on the upper arm, but early in the war different battalions could choose their own way to deal with such matters. His shoulder title comprised a brass bugle horn over SHROPSHIRE in block letters.

There is no real difference in uniform between a Regular and a mobilised Reservist and if the Reservist had been a Regular previously he would soon blend in with his trained way of wearing a uniform.

The RA referred to is the Royal Artillery, who in WW1 were divided into three different elements, but wore the same cap badge. Pretty much most units wore the Gor Blimey at the time it was issued, although it was seen as scruffy and 'unsoldierlike' by the Regular hierarchy and was soon replaced by a similarly shaped soft cap, but without the ear flaps.

It is not completely impossible that the cap was retained by him and used with his uniform when deployed on field training after the war, especially given the wedding ring that you mentioned.

[4thGordons]

As I don't think anyone has mentioned it, he appears to have one of his buttons covered with black cloth (in mourning of a close relative) this might help you pin down the date of the photo if you are familiar with the family tree. I think this mouring button was restricted to close direct relatives (fathers,brothers, sons) but happy to be corrected on that.

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

As I don't think anyone has mentioned it, he appears to have one of his buttons covered with black cloth (in mourning of a close relative) this might help you pin down the date of the photo if you are familiar with the family tree. I think this mouring button was restricted to close direct relatives (fathers,brothers, sons) but happy to be corrected on that.

Chris

Yes I have always thought it interesting that it was invariably the second button down, even though it was never listed in regulations.

[Andrew Upton]

Yes I have always thought it interesting that it was invariably the second button down, even though it was never listed in regulations.

It's actually against regulations - one of the Handy Hints style books for young officers I read once mentioned it as an example of something that wasn't to be allowed on parades. Tolerated under certain circumstances seems more accurate...

[millie231]

Thank you all so much for helping with my research.

The mourning button could be a good clue. I am still convinced the photo is later than 1915, but he did loose a cousin in France in 1915, and I am waiting for a death certificate of confirmation of when his father died , possibly 1921.

Frosmile thank you in particular for the great photos which bring the whole thing to life!

Millie x

[FROGSMILE]

On 18/03/2013 at 01:56, Andrew Upton said:

It's actually against regulations - one of the Handy Hints style books for young officers I read once mentioned it as an example of something that wasn't to be allowed on parades. Tolerated under certain circumstances seems more accurate...

Yes I am aware that it was against regulations. There have been many posts/threads covering the mourning button so I am always wary of repetition ad nauseam. My reference to 'regulations' concerned King's Regulations for the Army, where in the section on mourning (black arm band etc) it (the mourning button) is not listed at all. Hence my comment.

Edited 15 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you all so much for helping with my research.

The mourning button could be a good clue. I am still convinced the photo is later than 1915, but he did loose a cousin in France in 1915, and I am waiting for a death certificate of confirmation of when his father died , possibly 1921.

Frosmile thank you in particular for the great photos which bring the whole thing to life!

Millie x

I am glad that you found the photos useful Millie, I know that it can be difficult sometimes to make out the detail on such old photos so I thought it might help. If you do a lot of photo examination as part of your research then I recommend that you invest in a 'linen tester' (powerful folding magnifier) as one would be extremely useful. Mine is x20 and works especially well on prints from glass plate technology of that period.

The loss of a cousin in 1915 would be a good potential rationale for the mourning button your GGF wears. As the war went on letters from home often carried news (good and bad) of family members also serving in the line, or at sea, and their loss was keenly felt. The wearing of the button was a way of showing solidarity, pride, and resilience, as well as the obvious remembrance and mourning for a lost loved one. I suspect that it was for those reasons that authority (the officers and SNCOs) usually turned a blind eye, other than on formal parades when strict uniformity was paramount and a reflection of discipline. It seems to have been a 'tradition' that arose from the public displays of mourning that were so encouraged by Queen Victoria after the death of Prince Albert, that over time, spread to the Army.

[millie231]

Frogsmile

Thanks for the advice ! I shall certainly invest as I can't believe I has missed such details ! Although I am not sure the black button would have meant anything to me as I have never heard of a "mourning button" . Regulation or not I think it is a quiet sign of determination and solidarity . Thank you again for the continued education

Millie x

[Muerrisch]

According to King's Regs, only officers and warrant officers were allowed mourning, , "a band of black crape [sic] 3 and 1/4 inches wide worn above the left elbow".

On Saturday that helped me to date a company group photo, said to be c. 1910 .............. two officers, almost certainly mourning King Edward 1911.

[Grovetown]

Nasty excuse of a reproduction Gor Blimey in the images above, but I suppose it tells the story for these purposes.

Cheers,

GT.