16th Sherwood Foresters (Chatsworth Rifles)

[PHoath]

I'm really not sure!!

[sapper5]

Dear Neil,

Here is the story of the photo above.  While researching a Major in the Royal Engineers back in 1980 I was in contact with a woman who knew my man.  She was elderly and could not remember what my Major Robert Cecil Lord looked like, but she had a large number of letters sent to her by the man in this photograph.  She told me that the letters were written on the stationary to the 16th (Service) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters and that they had in the letterhead the same badge that this man is wearing.  The letters were all signed "Conway."  Could be Conway John Hart.

[sapper5]

Here is the story about this photo.  While researching a Major in the Royal Engineers back in 1980 I was in contact with a woman who knew my man, Major Robert Cecil Lord, MC, R.E..  She was elderly and could not remember what my Major Lord looked like, but she had a large number of letters sent to her by the man in this photograph.  She told me that the letters were written on the stationary to the 16th (Service) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters and that they had in the letterhead the same badge that this man is wearing.  The letters were all signed "Conway."  Could be Conway John Hart.

[sapper5]

On 21/05/2013 at 05:17, mikebriggs said:

Marty and Neil

Let me have your e-mail and I will send a PDF of Truscott book

 

On 18/02/2012 at 17:27, mikebriggs said:

hello Dave

PM me your e-mail and I will send you a pdf copy of the book

cheers

Mike

p.s. mine cost me £60 so must have got a bargain

Mike,

I am looking for information regarding the action in which 72484 Private Charles Cain, 16th Battalion, Sherwood Foresters was killed on 23 April 1918. 

 

I would like to pester you yet for a pdf. copy of Truscott's book, as if you haven't already sent out enough copies.  It would really be appreciated.

 

My email address is: sappercolonel@aol.com

 

Kindest regards,

 

Ed De Santis (sapper5)

[mikebriggs]

Hi Ed 

You can download the PDFs from the bottom of this page

https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/resources/regimental-histories/

page 201 - just states battalion were under constant shell fire whilst in the rear

cheers

Mike

[sapper5]

Mike,

Many thanks for all of this.  You are a gem.

 

I downloaded the battalion war diary from The National Archives.  My guy was KIA in April 1918.  Would you believe that the diary does not include the month of April?

 

Here is a photo of 72484 Private Charles Cain.  He originally enlisted in the RFC; hence, his appearance in that uniform.  Went to France with the RFC and was sent for infantry training and then transferred to the 16th Battalion, Sherwood Foresters.

 

Regards,

Ed

[mikebriggs]

Hi Ed

Glad you got hold of it. Interestingly the 7**** 'series' of numbers were used to renumber men transferred into the Foresters between Sept 1916 and about April 1917. So its likely that Charles ended up in the 16th Battalion March/April 1917

cheers

Mike

[sapper5]

His service papers say he went from the RFC to the 63rd Royal Naval Division for infantry training on 3 September 1917 and to the 16th Battalion on 24 September 1917 as a "Compulsory" transfer.  He was 38 years old, had not prior training as an infantryman and seems he was only trained for 21 days to fight on the front line. 

 

Have you ever seen the terminology "Compulsory" transfer?  Actually the service papers show "Compulsorely transferred" but I don't think that is a good work in English.

[mikebriggs]

Morning Ed

I think "Compulsory Transfer" was reasonably common, particularly as the War dragged on and men were being posted to units that they had not originally enlisted in - and between the different services of course. I have come across a few examples in the Territorial Force.

Cheers

Mike

[sapper5]

Thanks Mike,

 

That certainly makes sense.  Further research into Private Cain indicates, according to a relative, that "he had poor mechanical aptitude and was not qualified for employment with any aircraft squadron."  He originally was assigned to work with observation balloons where he only had to add his weight, all 128 pounds of it, to the control lines.  He was enlisted as an Air Mechanic 2nd Class in the RFC and actually was promoted to Air Mechanic 1st Class before being re-trained as an infantryman.  Obviously the Army became convinced that he could do more good with a rifle in his hands rather than a rope.

[sapper5]

On 03/11/2020 at 12:37, sapper5 said:

His service papers say he went from the RFC to the 63rd Royal Naval Division for infantry training on 3 September 1917 and to the 16th Battalion on 24 September 1917 as a "Compulsory" transfer.  He was 38 years old, had not prior training as an infantryman and seems he was only trained for 21 days to fight on the front line. 

 

Have you ever seen the terminology "Compulsory" transfer?  Actually the service papers show "Compulsorely transferred" but I don't think that is a good work in English.

 

Mike,

 

His service papers refer to him as Private throughout.  The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has him listed as Rifleman.  Since the 16th Battalion were known as the Chatsworth Rifles, is his rank "Rifleman" and not "Private?'

 

Ed

 

[mikebriggs]

Morning Ed

That's a good question. I've just looked at SDGW and all the 16th Battalion casualties are listed as Private. Although the 16th were known as the Chatsworth Rifles (and there was also the Robin Hood Rifles) the War Office didn't recognise the Sherwood Foresters as a rifle regiment - I wonder if it was a mistake by CWGC or do they list all 16th Battalion as Riflemen?

cheers

Mike

[sapper5]

Truscott's Roll of Honour lists the men as Privates.  I have found errors in the CWGC listings over the years.  I think Private is the correct rank.

[stevem49]

Did a search of 16th Bn for April 1918 on CWGC.  Only four of the men are listed as Rifleman, so must be an error, either on records at time of CWGC listing. Twenty Five listed as Private. If you contact CWGC, they should make changes to rank,

 

[sapper5]

4 hours ago, stevem49 said:

Did a search of 16th Bn for April 1918 on CWGC.  Only four of the men are listed as Rifleman, so must be an error, either on records at time of CWGC listing. Twenty Five listed as Private. If you contact CWGC, they should make changes to rank,

 

Thanks.

Stay well, Steve.

Ed

[stevem49]

17 hours ago, sapper5 said:

Thanks.

Stay well, Steve.

Ed

Ubique  

[Prosper]

Hi I was wondering if anyone here could cast any light on my wife's grandfather's war service with the Chatsworth Rifles?

 

Norman Henry Pountain enlisted in the 16th Battalion, Sherwood Foresters at Buxton on 22nd June 1915, reg no 16/27599

He was then transferred to the 19th (Reserve) Battalion SF on 10th September 1915 and posted to France 31st August 1916. According to the Sherwood Foresters website, the next day, 1st September, the 19th Bn was moved to Newcastle and absorbed into the Training Reserve Battalions of the 19th Reserve Brigade.

 

My question is - would Norman have joined the 16th Bn in France, it being the one he enlisted into? Or could he have been sent to any infantry unit?

 

It's not clear from his records what unit he is part of until he is transferred to the 101st Labour Corps on 9th January 1918. His reg no changes to 479998.

 

Any help in understanding what he might have been doing between Aug 1916 and Jan 1918 would be most welcome.

[stevem49]

Not sure if Norman ever got to a battalion in field. He also only had two months in France prior to his accident (fall)  For some reason I cannot find his Medal Index Card or Medal roll. From 21/10/1916 he was hospitals and on 1/11/1917 joined Training school at Calais. Probably not fit for active service but could train others.  Staying with them until Jan 1918.

 

Steve 

[Prosper]

Thanks very much for your reply Steve, it has led me to look again at Norman's Active Service Casualty form, which I've had trouble in trying to decipher the handwriting. In light of your post, I realise now that it tells the story of his hospitalisation.

 

It also states that he was classified 'PB' on 8/11/1916. Google informs me that PB means Permanent Base, but doesn't tell me what that actually means. Do you know if it's some kind of light duties reference?

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Prosper said:

It also states that he was classified 'PB' on 8/11/1916. Google informs me that PB means Permanent Base, but doesn't tell me what that actually means. Do you know if it's some kind of light duties reference?

Effectively whatever duties were needed at the location he was posted to- he could be clerking, doing general carrying work etc

Craig

[Prosper]

Thanks for that info, Craig. Norman had been a grocer's clerk in Civvy Street so could easily have adapted to such duties.

[stevem49]

I would think he was a clerk at Calais before they moved him to Labour Corps. It looks as though he may have been on Anglesey at some stage with Labour Corps. Difficult to read but looks like Beaumaris.

[Prosper]

Thanks for that insight Steve. I had assumed that Beaumaris would be a reference to place in France. A quick search of WW1 bases on Anglesey has revealed that there was a training camp at Beaumaris - Kingsbridge Camp

 

http://www.heneb.co.uk/ww1/reports/militarylandscapes.pdf

 

The hard to read entry looks like "joined at Training Sch. Beaumaris 5/1/18" - presumably a reference to where he joined the 101st Labour Corps, retraining there before heading to France