16th Sherwood Foresters (Chatsworth Rifles)

[PHoath]

Following on from my earlier post attaching the photograph of my grandfather, Reginald Carter Davies, I now attach a photo of him and 2 other fellow officers on their way to France in 1916. This was labelled on the reverse as " at Southampton March 1916". My grandfather is standing on the left, but I have no idea as to who the other 2 men were.

[trenchtrotter]

Another cracking image. Printed off....thanks

TT

[BRONNO]

Hi Guys, I am researching a W H Bustin MM who is commemorated on the memorial in Pozieres. He is the Great Grandfather of one of my best friends and I am taking him over , later in the year, and want to find out as much as possible about W H. I know he served in the Boer war and was rather old , 37, when he was killed in the Michael offensive in 1918. I would love a copy of the Truscot book, if it was possible, to see what information is in it. Any information that anyone on the site might know would be gratefully received.

His pension papers are on line, also to mention that he got the award of the Military Medal with the 17th Battalion (Welbeck Rangers) Sherwood Foresters.

235061 Pte W. Bustin.

(War Diary 17th Btn).

The following Officers, W.O.s, N.C.O's and men have been recommended for honours and awards as stated for gallantry and devotion to duty during the action, September 20th to September 22nd 1917, 1 DSO, 5 M.C.'s, 4 DCM's, 10 M.M.'s.

21st September 1917,

Yesterday the Battalion gained every objective in spite of strong resistance of groups of enemy in shell holes. We held it all day. The enemy formed up for three counter attacks but was beaten off each time and dispersed by our Artillery fire. Hostile shelling on forward Area very heavy.

BRONNO.

[BRONNO]

Following on from my earlier post attaching the photograph of my grandfather, Reginald Carter Davies, I now attach a photo of him and 2 other fellow officers on their way to France in 1916. This was labelled on the reverse as " at Southampton March 1916". My grandfather is standing on the left, but I have no idea as to who the other 2 men were.

Great photograph, I do know the officer seated is Robert Leslie Illingworth, DSO, MC and Bar but not too sure of the officer standing on the right, but has a resemblance to Lt Conway John Hart, K.I.A. 10th October 1916, Schwaben Redoubt.. BRONNO.

[John Orchard]

Pippa

Many thanks for your reply and the photograph of Lt Davies. I knew of his connection with the 16th Battalion because of the entry in the Army list at the appropriate time. Perhaps a prompt given to me through another thread may answer your question though. It seems that there were two reserve battalions based at Hylton Castle at that time, forming part of the defences for the east coast. Perhaps your grandfather was temporarily attached to one of these prior to returning to France?

I have copied the picture to keep in my grandfather's file.

Regards
John

[John Orchard]

Bronno

Do you know if it is possible for me to identify the precise battalion that my grandfather was attached to during his time with the Sherwood Foresters, since it is now reasonably certain that it was not the Chatsworth Rifles. He had started the war in 10 Bn The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment) after attestation in September 1915. He was blown up in the first fifteen minutes of the battle of Menin Road ridge on 20 September 1917, all of which I have been able to ascertain from personal documents and those held in official repositories. His MIC shows that he was then in the Training Reserve, then the Notts and Derby Regt, and finally the Royal Defence Corps. He was still in the N&D Regt in October 1918 and then stationed at Hylton Castle - this from his pay book which was signed very clearly by Pippa's grandfather, Lt R C Davies, described in his signature as OC B Coy on 8 October 1918.

Any suggestions most gratefully received

John

[John Orchard]

Pippa

If it is of interest I have scanned and enlarged your grandfather's signature in my grandfather's paybook. It is a regret to me that I suspect his paybook for The Queen's (RWS Regt) was probably more informative since he was with the regiment for two whole years before his injuries in September 1917. The paybook that I have was newly issued on 8 Oct 1918 and very little was filled in beyond the basic facts. I should like to see if it is possible to trace any AFW 3297 forms for him, since if written, they were supposed to have been deposited with the record office - whether these wills were retained after demobilisation or not, I have no idea, but I bet someone on this list does.

Many thanks for your help, and yes, I would be very glad to hear of any further progress that you make with your researches. In the meantime I shall look at the link given earlier.

regards

John

[trenchtrotter]

Re W H Bustin,

Makes sense as when the 17th SF were disbanded in Feb1918 as part of the brigade restructures many were transferred to the 16th battalion. Truscotts book details the numbers and companies. His book would give an idea of Bustins war as they usually shadowed each other but for exact details it would be more accurate after he transferred.

TT

[PHoath]

Bronno,

Many thanks for identifying the seated officer as Robert Leslie Illingworth in the photo, which is most helpful. I have attached another photograph of what looks very much like the man standing on the right. Does that help possibly identify him as Lt Conway John Hart? There is nothing on the reverse of the photo to give any clues.

Pippa

[PHoath]

Pippa

If it is of interest I have scanned and enlarged your grandfather's signature in my grandfather's paybook. It is a regret to me that I suspect his paybook for The Queen's (RWS Regt) was probably more informative since he was with the regiment for two whole years before his injuries in September 1917. The paybook that I have was newly issued on 8 Oct 1918 and very little was filled in beyond the basic facts. I should like to see if it is possible to trace any AFW 3297 forms for him, since if written, they were supposed to have been deposited with the record office - whether these wills were retained after demobilisation or not, I have no idea, but I bet someone on this list does.

Many thanks for your help, and yes, I would be very glad to hear of any further progress that you make with your researches. In the meantime I shall look at the link given earlier.

regards

John

John,

Thank you so much for scanning and attaching the photograph of my grandfather's signature. It matches the signature on his officer's service record! it is so interesting to know where he was when he was serving "at home" and if I make any further progress, I will certainly let you know.

Thanks again

Pippa

[BRONNO]

That is a very nice portrait photo and I am pulling my hair out (what bit I have) trying to put a name to the face. I will spend part of this weekend searching what I have in my records to try and put a definite name to him, I think it will be a little difficult but I will do my best .

[PHoath]

Givenchy Trench Raid - night of 4th/5th June 1916 - can anyone help?

Copied below is a transcript of the orders for the trench raid carried out by the 16th Battalion, Sherwood Foresters on the night of 4th/5th June 1916 at Givenchy. This raid, the first by the Battalion, was led by my grandfather, 2nd Lt R.C.Davies. I have identified the start position, A.15.b.77.00, from a trench map found online. However, I cannot work out the central point in the German trenches to which they were going, A1,Dc,0.8.10. Can anyone help identify the exact location? I have the original handwritten orders, but as they are in pencil on very thin paper, they don't scan very legibly - however, if anyone would like to see the original document, I am happy to upload it. Many thanks

-------------

A transcription of the Operations orders:

Operation orders No 1

For Bombing attack to be carried out night of 4/5 June

1. Objective

To raid German front line trench on a front of 160 yards the central point being A1,Dc,0.8.10. Do as much damage and kill as many Germans as possible in 15. minutes.

2. Composition of Force

Right Party 2/Lt Davies and 20 N.C.O.’s and men.

Left Party 2/Lt Hardy and 20 N.C.O.’s and men.

Liaison Party 2/Lt Cholterton 8 Carriers

4 Stretcher bearers

2 Telephonists

3 Runners

Reserve 2/Lt Hart and 12 N.C.O’s and men

8 Stretcher bearers

3. Plan

The parties will leave our Trenches at A.15.b.77.00.

The right party will lead and advance as quietly as possible rush through the gap in the German wire, and bomb to the right leaving a stop at the point of entry.

They will fix bayonets.

The left party will follow close behind but clear of first party and will rush the German trench and bomb to the left.

Liaison party will enter the German trench when the 2 leading parties are clear of point of entry. At the end of 15 mins, the right and left parties will withdraw on Liaison party and pass out of German trench leaving stops 30 yds on each flank.

The liaison party will first evacuate all casualties.

Reserve bomb carriers will remain to the last and withdraw covered by flank stops.

The officer in command of Liaison party is responsible for the withdrawal and also in keeping touch with right and left parties throughout the operation.

Reserve Party will remain in our front line trench ready to render assistance and evacuate the wounded.

4. Stores to be carried

Carriers 20 grenades

Others 10 grenades

The first two parties will carry 10 pairs of wire cutters each.

5. Dress

Drill order with Entrenching tools, gas helmets will not be carried.

6. Password

CHATSWORTH

7. Artillery, T.M. and M.G. Cooperation has been arranged.

8. The word “Retire” will not be used throughout the operation – all ranks are to understand that even if heard it does not emanate from anyone in authority.

9. The exact hour (X) will be notified later, sequence of timings are as follows:

5 min X to X pm, 1^st mine blown and artillery bombardment

X pm Inf. advance

X-2 pm Art. barrage placed

X.1 pm 2^nd mine blown

X.2 pm Vickers, Lewis Guns, rifle grenades open

X.15 pm Inf. withdrawal begins

10. Mine. During the advance across the open, it is probable a mine will be blown at 350 yds on the left flank.

The party will be out of reach of falling debris, and should seize the opportunity during the lull that always occurs to enter the German trenches.

11. The faces of all ranks of the parties should be blacked with cork.

12. During operations all “Up Traffic” will be by WOLF Rd. All “Down Traffic” by FINCHLEY Rd and ORCHARD Rd.

13. Assembly. Assault parties to be in position at 15 minutes to X time.

14. The Regimental aid post will be that of 16^th R.B. in the village line.

15. The position of the Battalion C.O. will be in CAMBRIDGE TERRACE.

Bgd Hdqtrs at advanced Report Centre VAUXHALL BRIDGE Rd

16. Watches will be synchronized at 8.0 pm with Bgd Hdqtrs

C Herbert Stepney

Lt Col

16^th Sherwood Foresters

4-6-16

[GrahamC]

Hi guys

Following replies to my post HERE - it seems maybe I am also now looking for the War Diary / History of the 16th Bn. around the 4 - 6th June 1916.

I am trying to help a lady from my former home town of Buxton who is researching her great uncle who served with the Sherwood Foresters. She has his diary and am hoping to persuade her to make it available for research purposes.

The man's details are: Pt. 25750 Robert Blood, and according to his diary he served with the 16th Bn. He was posted to France at the beginning of 1916, "... into the trenches at Lavantie then La Bassee canal then Festubert, on to the Bethune Front, then back to Festubert where he was wounded". He doesn't give a date unfortunately. The diary does say that he was wounded at Festubert, " in a raid with great loss ". When he returned to France, on March 3rd 1917, he was drafted to the 7th Battalion Sherwood Foresters.

The only dates when the 16th had significant losses in a raid i.e. 9 k.i.a. between 4 - 6th June - seems to be in the raid described in these posts.

All help and advice gratefully received (I daren't ask for yet another copy of the book!)

Thanks

Graham

Edit: Oooops, didn't notice there were two pages to this post - so now have the operational orders from page 2.

Edited 2 February , 2014 by GrahamC

[PHoath]

Graham,

Attached is the War Diary for 16th Sherwood Foresters for March and April 1916 - hopefully not too many transcription errors. Next 2 months to follow in next post.

Pippa

16th Battalion Sherwood Foresters War Diary March - April 1916.doc

[PHoath]

Graham,

Here, attached, is the 16th Sherwood Foresters War Diary for May and June 1916. I hope this helps with your research. As my grandfather, 2nd Lt R.C.Davies was wounded on Givenchy raid, we haven't transcribed from June 1916 until he returned to the Battalion in August 1917.

Pippa

16th Battalion Sherwood Foresters War Diary May - June 1916.doc

[GrahamC]

Hi Pippa

I noted from your name from the other posts last year and wondered if you'd pick this one up.

Many thanks for the Diary transcripts - just what I needed. All the available evidence points to my man being one of those wounded in the raid led by your grandfather.

I'll pass them on to the lady in Buxton, who is the gr-niece of Pt Blood. Incidentally, he had 4 cousins who also served. I wrote an article about them last Nov and coincidentally bumped into her when I went into the newspaper offices to collect a copy. (I don't live in Buxton any longer.)

Best wishes

Graham

[PHoath]

Hi Graham,

Many thanks for your reply. Have you read a copy of "Joffrey's War" by Geoffrey Ratcliff Husbands which describes his time with the 16th Battalion? It was from this book that I discovered the exact location of the 4th/5th June trench raid, led by my grandfather, although I have always known that it was in the Bethune area as that is where he was initially in hospital.

Thank you for attaching a copy of your article, which I have read with interest. I note that you mention the German Spring Offensive which began on March 21st 1918. My husband and I are currently trying to piece together exactly what happened during this time as my grandfather was wounded again on March 30th/31st, although much less severely this time. If you learn anything further about either June 1916 or March 1918, it would be fascinating to hear more.

Best wishes

Pippa

[PHoath]

Does anyone have any information about a source mentioned in the Bibliography of 'Joffrey's War'?

The source is described as :

'Nurse, 2nd Lieutenant F.N. '16th Sherwood Foresters, 39th Division' [An account of the battalion between 22nd March and 27th June 1918]

We are trying to work out exactly how my grandfather, Lt R C Davies, was wounded at the end of March 1918.

Any help would be much appreciated, in particular where a copy might be found. I'm sorry if I haven't posted this in the correct place, but it does follow on from earlier (including my) correspondence!

Pippa

[Koogs]

Hi People, hope you don't mind if I pop on this thread with another member of the 16th.

I'm very interested in the Chatsworth Rifles as my Grandfather served with them till 28/5/1918 when he joined the RAF .

76126 William Cougle 16th Sherwood Forester Battalion died 1984

I probed him about the war when I was a kid he gave me snippets, including being in the SF's, seeing and being shot at by Red Baron and being wounded, but he'd told none of it to his family.

So I know he was "Wounded by enemy shell fire 25/6/1917 when in the trenches in Hill Top
Sector La Belle Alliance, Belgium"

Among his medals is a small Croix de Guerre, which he said "the French gave us". What this is for I have no idea.

Cougle was sometime spelt Cogle or Coghill , and now after receiving a bit more info on another thread (thanks Graeme)possibly even Congle.

I noticed PHoath was kind enough to share some of the battalion diaries and wonder if it would be possible to share some more around the 25/6/17.

I'd appreciate any info on my grandfather and the battalion.

I have a few photos I'd like to upload from my pc but need to find out how to do that first.

Cheers

Koogs

[PHoath]

Koogs

Many thanks for your post - which I have noticed rather belatedly.

I'm afraid don't have the War Diary for the 16th over this period - my grandfather was not with the battalion - he was still recovering after being wounded.

I have looked at Truscott's book - there is only a brief mention of a very trying period - with Killed: 11 Other Ranks, Wounded: 2 Officers, 76 Other Ranks.

Sorry I can't help further. If I find anything - I'll post it.

regards

Pippa

[wpf1958]

Is there any possibilty of Mike letting me have a pdf copy of the Chatsworth Rifles, can't even find it on Abebooks! My email is remembering1418.com

Sorry Mike, my email is remembering@btinternet.com — oops!

Wilhelm

[wpf1958]

No worries about the pdf, found a download:

https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/regimental-histories/

[KevinBattle]

Pippa et al

You probably already know this, but R C Davies married a relative of my neighbour and there's his wedding day photo on 12 March 1924 here 

http://www.twickenhampark.co.uk/Ailsa Park Villas Part Two.html

[PHoath]

Hi KevinBattle,

 

Yes, your neighbour's mother was my grandmother's sister.  Sadly my grandmother died the in January 1925, a few weeks after my father was born.  The wedding photo I had sent to the website, along with several others.

 

I've still had no luck with finding out exactly the exact direction of the trench raid led by my grandfather, Reginald Carter Davies, in June 1916.  We have found, and stood on the spot, A.15.b.77.00, but the trench orders indicate they were: "To raid German front line trench on a front of 160 yards the central point being A1,Dc,0.8.10".  I know a lot of the detail, from Truscott's history and from the War Diary, but we can't work out the location of A1,Dc,0.8.10.

 

Pippa

Edited 3 August , 2017 by PHoath
typo

[Neil Mackenzie]

On 9/27/2013 at 19:55, PHoath said:

Bronno,

Many thanks for identifying the seated officer as Robert Leslie Illingworth in the photo, which is most helpful. I have attached another photograph of what looks very much like the man standing on the right. Does that help possibly identify him as Lt Conway John Hart? There is nothing on the reverse of the photo to give any clues.

Pippa

 

 

This is a picture of Conway Hart. Is it the same man - I am not too sure?