roger Posted 29 July , 2004 Share Posted 29 July , 2004 Although I’ve still got quite a bit of painting left to do on my latest figure painting project I am trying to decide what to paint next. This figure on the Fusilier website has caught my eye. http://www.thefusilier.demon.co.uk/British...2%20GWB%206.htm I’m sure I have seen the photo somewhere that this figure has been based on, but I’ve been through my own books several times and can’t find it. Can anyone put me out of my misery? Who else has seen it? Please tell me I've seen it . Was the decoy used to attract the fire of snipers or was it used as a decoy during the evacuation? Roger. PS If anyone has a British Army shirt in their collection they could post a colour photo of it would be a great help. A re-enactors replica would suffice, (Kristof?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 July , 2004 Share Posted 29 July , 2004 (edited) I’m sure I have seen the photo somewhere that this figure has been based on, but I’ve been through my own books several times and can’t find it. Can anyone put me out of my misery? Who else has seen it? Please tell me I've seen it . I wonder if this is the one that you are thinking of Roger? It’s a painting by Mike Chappell and is an illustration in Philip J. Haythornthwaite’s book ‘Gallipoli 1915 – Frontal Assault on Turkey’ in Osprey’s Campaign series The caption is as foll; “British infantry in tropical uniform. A popular style for service in hot climates was shirt, shorts and topee, the latter sometimes bearing the regimental insignia. The equipment illustrated here is the so-called 1914 pattern, produced in leather as an emergency measure to compensate for the shortage of the regulation 1908 pattern webbing equipment.” As far as I remember from my reading decoys were used from quite early on and by no means just at the evacuation ps: shorts would be a rare sight at the evacuation in DEC/JAN; remember the floods and frost-bite only the month before Best of luck with the project Michael D.R. Edited 29 July , 2004 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 29 July , 2004 Share Posted 29 July , 2004 One more thought Having put the two pics side by side then perhaps the model’s shirt is a bit too rich a shade of blue. In Gallipoli’s summer sun it would fade quite quickly and usually be covered with dust anyway. Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 29 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2004 Michael, First of all thanks for posting the Michael Chappell illustration. It's not the picture I was thinking of but very useful all the same. It is an actual photograph I am thinking of. "As far as I remember from my reading decoys were used from quite early on and by no means just at the evacuation ps: shorts would be a rare sight at the evacuation in DEC/JAN; remember the floods and frost-bite only the month before" I'm sure you're right on both those points Michael, cheers. As for the colour of the shirt it looked too bright to me too. (Hence phot. request) Thanks again, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 2 August , 2004 Share Posted 2 August , 2004 If it would be of any interest, I have one of the flaxen colored shirts (I'm sure there is a more correct nomenclature), but unfortunately no blue example. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 5 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2004 Chip, thanks I would be interested in your " flaxen" coloured shirt and to be honest I didn't know there was another type, as opposed to the blue grey shirt. Is it possible for you to post a photo of it? Cheers, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 6 August , 2004 Share Posted 6 August , 2004 roger, As I said, my description of the issue British collarless shirt was probably not the best. The color is more of a natural wool color, that is, more of a cream color. I will dig a photo out this weekend and post it. Regards, Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 6 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2004 I will dig a photo out this weekend and post it. Chip, That would be much appreciated. Please don't go out of your way to post it asap. I'm still in the middle of painting another figure and haven't yet started the Gallipoli figure, I'm only in the researching stage at the moment. Thankyou very much for your interest, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 6 August , 2004 Share Posted 6 August , 2004 I’m sure I have seen the photo somewhere that this figure has been based on, but I’ve been through my own books several times and can’t find it. Can anyone put me out of my misery? Who else has seen it? Please tell me I've seen it . Second attempt to find your photo; try this one for size It’s from Ray Westlake’s book ‘British Regiments at Gallipoli’ And the caption is “Men of 1/4th Northamptonshire Regiment in trenches. Several dummies have been constructed from service dress jackets and helmets. Photograph taken by Captain W. S. Fisher.” Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 6 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2004 Michael, Thats the one! you can all stop looking now I received the model through the post this morning. When I ordered it I asked Steve Warrilow, the sculptor and owner of The Fusilier range of figures where the inspiration for the model came from as I was sure I had seen a photo very similar to it. he put a note in with the model saying it was from Osprey "British Territorial Units 1914-18". Guess what? I have the book but missed it when I initially looked and yes it is the same one you have posted, thankyou anyway, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 6 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2004 Oh and British Terr. Units is also written by Ray Westlake Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 7 August , 2004 Share Posted 7 August , 2004 roger, Here's my shirt. It has the same "V" shaped yoke in the front. The "collar" is blue and white cotton ticking material, the rest being wool. It is marked to a Londonderry maker inside. I hope it helps some. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 8 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2004 Thanks very much Chip. Seeing original items is a great help. I may be wrong but I can't help thinking that your shirt may well have started life as a more blue-grey colour and over time, washing etc. faded to the colour it is now. What do you think? Thanks again, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 9 August , 2004 Share Posted 9 August , 2004 roger, No, this shirt is in very good, worn condition, but not faded. Always was this color. I am posting a photo from Miltaria Magazine No.14, dated November 1986. You can see the two major types of shirts. The caption says that they both are flannel, the top one being gray/blue and the bottom-natural linen color. As you hopefully can see, the bottom version is about identical to mine. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 9 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2004 Chip, Thanks for setting me straight on that one. I must admit I didn't know there was any other type of shirt besises the grey-blue one so I've learnt something there. Thankyou for taking the trouble to post the information for me it is much appreciated. Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 roger, My pleasure. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Roger, There were actually 14 different varieties of shirts on inventory in 1915. The shirt most commonly issued was the Silver Grey flannel and to a much lesser extent the Grey Ordinary (a much older pattern type and issue only meant for reservists as it was also cheaper than a Silver Grey shirt). The shirt on the model is way too blue (Based on lots of examples of Silver Grey Material in my collection). I posted lots of photos of PH Helmets made of Silver Grey Flannel on this forum (Do a search). You will see a range of shades all tendeding more towards a Grey. Natural Flannel (Chip's Flaxen) began substituting for Silver Grey in the summer of 1915 with Pattern 8433/1915. This pattern was identical to the normal Silver Grey pattern except substitution of material. Both being manufactured in parrellel. The blue Stripped collar on Chips original was introduced on Silver Grey and Grey Ordinary Shirts on 21 Aug 1914. Before that date collars were made of white cotton. To get an idea of the difference between a Silver Grey flannel shirt pattern and a Grey Ordinary shirt. The shirt in the Militaria magazine photo on top is a Grey Ordinary and they were declared obsolete in May 1917. The Natural flannel shirt on the bottom is a pattern 8433/1915 (Identical except material to the Silver GRey pattern). The photo of the shirt that Chip posted is a post 21 June 1917 pattern. You can tell by the barrell cuffs. All cuffs on Silver Grey shirts prior to that date were pointed. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 10 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2004 The shirt on the model is way too blue Joe, Thats what I thought too, hence the request for phots of original items. Thanks very much for the information. Would you agree that the silver grey shirt would've been the shirt most likely worn by 4/Northants during the summer in Gallipoli? Thanks very much, Roger. (Amazed someone has so much information on British Army shirts but glad of it ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Roger, Most likely the 4/Northants had Silver Grey shirts. At that time collars would have been a mix of the older white cotton or the newer Blue stripped Cotton. Doubt the Natural Shirts would have made it to Gallipoli by the summer. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger Posted 10 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Thought so. Thanks very much for your help Joe. Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnie Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Joe I think the natural shirt would have made it to Gallipoli. The practice of wearing the temperate climate flannel shirt in what we would call shirt sleeve order was common practice in the `Middle East and India. The shirt was far more practical than the 'KD Service dress tunic" and being flannel was very serviceable. The wearing of Khaki Flannel shirts in the Middle and Far East continued until the late seventies when they began to be withdrawn in favour of cammouflage uniforms I have seen picture of the Gray flannel shirt with Breast pockets probaly sewn on by the regimental tailor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Joe Unfortunately, your PH images wouldn't open when I had a look. May be just me, today. Some more detail on shirts if possible please, as the above has thrown me slightly. I have a shirt, which my pals (eg TP) and I believe to be WW1. I thought it was made of wool, densely matted (from washing?), but it could be 'natural flannel' as mentioned above. It appears to have started life as white or off-white, but is now pretty grubby. But not cream. Or grey. Buttons are flat tin, similar to the trouser button but obviously much smaller. It doesn't appear to be 'silver grey flannel' (even if I could compare to the PH images), but it has a white cotton collar. Could heavily washed Silver Grey be mistaken for old white wool? It is also short sleeved, and seemingly made that way as the sleeves are hemmed in the same material as the collar. Does this conform to any of the 14 varieties? Best wishes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Arniie, The statement of doubting issue of natural flannel shirts at Gallipoli only was refering to my doubt that any made it there in the summer. The approval of the shirt was too late to affect the supply during the summer. Groveton, Flannel during WWI was always 100% wool. Up to July 1915 there were 5 types of approved flannel for shirts. Drab-Mixture, Grey, Sliver-Grey, White and White Tropical. In 1915 and 16 “Flannel, Welsh natural all wool” and “Flannels, natural all wool and Angola” were added to the lists of approved flannel. Shirts on inventory in July 1915 included: Flannel Drab No. 1 and Pad Back Flannel Drab No. 2 WAR Flannel Grey Ordinary (Made-Unmade) Flannel Silver Grey (Made-Unmade) Flannel Silver Grey Zouave (WAR) Flannel White Ordinary--Hospital (Made-Unmade) Flannel White Tropical--Hospital (Made-Unmade) Flannel White Tropical--Helpless Patients (Made-Unmade) Flannel White Laboratory. The greatest preponderance of issue was "made" Silver Grey shirts. No approved pattern for short sleeve shirts appears in the RACD registry through 1928. (Don't actively Pursue study of shirts for special purpose like the white flannel ones so I may have missed a pattern or two) However, one does see these things my guess is that it is a unmade shirt modified during sewing by a Hospital staff. White always cooresponded with Hospital use. If White Flannel was used in any other application it would have been an anomaly. Also, the only collars to have had the blue striped cotton added were the Silver Grey and Grey Ordinary, no other shirt got that material for their collars. The color of the Natural shirt from the Militaria magazine almost looks like the magazine may have enhanced the sharpness of the color. The PH and Hypo Helmet photos should show-up. Some I posted back in June. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Thanks very much Joe Fascinating as usual. I'll have another look when I get in this evening, but pretty sure from what you say that it's Flannel White Ordinary - Hospital. And still, given the number of OR shirts that turn up, any is better than none and not-much-money well spent IMO! Thanks once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 If you ever get a chance a scanned/digital image of the shirt would be appreciated. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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