GOT ME ONE

[DAVE PLATT]

Hi All,

Happy New Year!

After much research I managed to acquire myself a very nice example of an SMLE Mk111* dated 1916. She is a mature lady with lots of usage marks that just adds to the awesomeness of this fine instrument of war, I wish I could take the cassette out of the butt and review that, if only!

All parts work fine, bolt action, magazine, bayonette fitting etc and she has a certificate of de activation. I like going through rifle and bayonette drills, marksmanship principles and stripping and cleaning drills, marvelous! my wife thinks I'm mad!

Serial number 6071U and lots of marking which I am happy with albeit there is an etched number on the body WR 53812, I'm thinking it could be a unit wpn number, for example Worcester Regiment?

Does anyone know please or seen this before on a wpn?

Also under the stock, there is a P, 2, A, 8, E,

Any info would be most welcome

Thanks

Dave

[spconnolly007]

Pretty fair assumption I'd say, 51812(so close) Archibald Willie Davis, Worcester Regiment, and there seem to be a few WR men with similarly close numbers on Ancestry if thats any help? Sean

[TonyE]

Congratulations, I am sure it will give you a great deal of pleasure. My only regret is that it is a de-act and not a live weapon, so you will not get the pleasure of shooting the old girl. (the rifle, that is). Now all you need are the bayonet (correct vintage otherwise S>S will be after you), wire cutters, grenade tray, muzzle flap etc., etc.

Is it an Enfield manufactured rifle? It still has the older round style cocking piece, but that is not uncommon on Mark III* rifles in 1916.

I doubt if the electro-pencilled number is a unit weapon number, I have never seen one on the metalwork before. Sometimes if a rifle did not have a butt disc the unit number was stamped on the butt wood, but not on the metal. Actually looks like it could be a museum accession number, but that is just a wild guess.

The various characters you mention stamped on the rifle are mostly inspection marks placed in the course of manufacture, but a photo of the marks would enable us to give a more detailed assesment.

Any other thoughts, Chris?

Regards

TonyE

[DAVE PLATT]

Hello Tony,

Thanks for your prompt reply, I'm happy with the de-act it makes the security and transport easier and negates the need for an annual inspection by a qualified armourer.

I still fire the 303 range now and again, last time was on the REME Corp SAAM at Longmoor, Hants. I ran the special weapons range. Its a complex number as RCO (range conducting officer) as we sign out various weapons from collections, usually through the collection at Warminster. The last one I did we had 35 weapons including, 2 Henry Martini's dated 1879, German Mauser, the range of 303s, various sniper rifles and then my range was sponsored by H&K so we had all their wpns plus 30,000 rounds! this was over a 10 day period, hard work but fun.

Talking about shooting the 303, I always run the '303 challenge' on that event, 5 rounds (no clip) 1 mag, 1 weapon, a huns head at 200 metres. On the blow of the whistle (time starts) dash forward to the firing point, fill the magazine, load the mag and engage the target in the standing upsupported position, fastest time with most hits wins the prize. It is always very popular. Over the ten days there was £379 in the pot!

I have two bayonets one stamped 1907, then 11 17 underneath that and then Anderson. They both fit the rifle perfectly. I intend to get the ancillary items too, cleaning kit and other items as you mention.

It is stamped Enfield.

Reference the number, I couldnt find any info on that, I suppose the WR will give it away if we can decipher that, I suppose if it is a museum reference it could be Weapon Reference?

I like what Sean has put tying it down to an individual by is reg number and WR being Worcester reg, I have never known that to be the case though as the weapon could be passed on to other soldiers in its lifetime. Thanks Sean for the suggestion though.

I will take some more pictures of the stampings and upload them for you to look at.

Thanks

Regards

Dave

Congratulations, I am sure it will give you a great deal of pleasure. My only regret is that it is a de-act and not a live weapon, so you will not get the pleasure of shooting the old girl. (the rifle, that is). Now all you need are the bayonet (correct vintage otherwise S>S will be after you), wire cutters, grenade tray, muzzle flap etc., etc.

Is it an Enfield manufactured rifle? It still has the older round style cocking piece, but that is not uncommon on Mark III* rifles in 1916.

I doubt if the electro-pencilled number is a unit weapon number, I have never seen one on the metalwork before. Sometimes if a rifle did not have a butt disc the unit number was stamped on the butt wood, but not on the metal. Actually looks like it could be a museum accession number, but that is just a wild guess.

The various characters you mention stamped on the rifle are mostly inspection marks placed in the course of manufacture, but a photo of the marks would enable us to give a more detailed assesment.

Any other thoughts, Chris?

Regards

TonyE

[TonyE]

It sounds like you had a fun time at longmoor. I hope Laidler gave you a hard time about shooting all his weapons from the Warminster collection!

Having a live firer on an FAC is not as onerous as you may think. There is certainly no need for an annual inspection by a qualified armourer. Once the rifle is proofed you are good to go, and it will only need an armourers attention if something serious goes awry.

Most of the accessories are as scarce as hens teeth, although there are very good reproductions of wire cutters and grenade launching trays etc. The "Flanders" mud flap is particularly rare, the last one on Flea bay fetching an inordinate amount of money. What is annoying is that I have one somewhere but cannot find it - unless of course I have lost it in the course of a couple of house moves.

Your P.07 bayonet is actually made by Sanderson, the "S" in your example being missing due to a poor strike - very common on P.07 bayonets.

I have not shot the run-down for a long time, although we still have snap-shooting competitions in the HBSA. Great fun, but my eyes are getting too old for SMLE iron sights these days trying to pick out a sand and black head against sand butts! I prefer my P.14 with aperture sights.

Here are a couple of pictures of my bits and pieces. The cup-dischargers are more readily available, but unfortunately the Home Office still insist these are Section 5, despite a recent court ruling to the opposite!

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

Some extra detail photos would help I think.

I would like to see an overall view of the rifle - as TonyE notes it has the original style cocking piece but this is entirely correct and 1916 was the first year Enfield began producing the MkIII* so there are lots of interesting combinations of features (is the receiver cut for the cuttoff? is the forend cut low for the same? Does the foreend still have the "swell" where the volley sight would have been fitted? Does the trigger guard have a wire loop or swivel mount....) all sorts of little anoraky things!

You should find the U prefixed serial number on the rear of the bolt handle, the reciever, the barrel (under the rear handguard - held in place with clips and can be carefully pried off without any other disassembly - you should also find a barrel date there to see if it is the original barrel - often loads of stamps here - close as you are going to get to your "cassette"!), the UNDERSIDE of the rear sight, the bayonet boss on the front band and perhaps the fore-end wood(by the bayonet mount).Do these all match?

My initial reaction is that the WR number is not an official military marking.

I have looked at a LOT of SMLEs and I have not seen anything quite like it before. The closest I have seen is on a batch of rifles repaired/refurbished (FTR'd) in 1953 (about the last time No1 rifles were processed in the UK) FTR 1953 is neatly electropencilled in this location. (BTW these rifles are about the closest you are likely to find to a "new" No1 rifle although many use great war vintage receivers)

The musuem number or other reference (perhaps private) seems a good guess. I have never heard of British rifles of this vintage being marked to individual soldiers (particularly O/Rs) nor permanently stamped to units.

looking forward to more pics.

Chris

The one official thing that is an outside possibility is: there was a repair facility at Weedon that processed a lot of weapons and although I have not seen it in this form before WR could perhaps indicate Weedon Repair.... but I think my money would be on a non official marking. of some sort

Edited 2 January , 2012 by 4thGordons

[calibre792x57.y]

I'm not certain but could this be a Northern Ireland number = Weapons Registration? It is not unusual to find even flintlock and percussion weapons marked with a registration number in northern Ireland as part of a single scheme to make weapons traceable during the 'Troubles'. There was also a similar scheme in South Africa, for the same reason. - SW

[TonyE]

I can easily check if that is so. I have forwarded the picture to someone who will know.

Regards

TonyE

[shippingsteel]

I'm not certain but could this be a Northern Ireland number = Weapons Registration? It is not unusual to find even flintlock and percussion weapons marked with a registration number in northern Ireland as part of a single scheme to make weapons traceable during the 'Troubles'. There was also a similar scheme in South Africa, for the same reason. - SW

Interesting you should mention that, the only other WR prefixed serial number I have seen on a SMLE was found HERE, in a recent thread concerning an SAF marked rifle.

Cheers, S>S

[DAVE PLATT]

Hello Tony,

Thanks for your info, very interesting and informative, great pictures too, I think it makes such a lot of difference to be able to go through drills when briefing a group especially when we have the items that go with the rifle.

I will be trying to source as many items as possible to go with my rifle ready for my Somme tours in May, 3 bookings already! I have the weapon handling and marksmanship principles sorted, including how to use a bayonet and grenades, seeing at I managed to get a couple of No5 Mk1s the other week.

Roger that on the eyesight, ha ha, I'm still good with the A2 Rifle at 300m and pass my annual tests no problem, reading the newspaper or a book requires magnification though! I loved the days of the SLR, I missed nothing! my trophy cabinet shows that, albeit the wife moved that lot into the attic ages ago!

Some education, for a list of the items that would go with the SMLE Mk111* would be great, all I've got to go with it is a sling and a bayonet.

Thanks

Dave

It sounds like you had a fun time at longmoor. I hope Laidler gave you a hard time about shooting all his weapons from the Warminster collection!

Having a live firer on an FAC is not as onerous as you may think. There is certainly no need for an annual inspection by a qualified armourer. Once the rifle is proofed you are good to go, and it will only need an armourers attention if something serious goes awry.

Most of the accessories are as scarce as hens teeth, although there are very good reproductions of wire cutters and grenade launching trays etc. The "Flanders" mud flap is particularly rare, the last one on Flea bay fetching an inordinate amount of money. What is annoying is that I have one somewhere but cannot find it - unless of course I have lost it in the course of a couple of house moves.

Your P.07 bayonet is actually made by Sanderson, the "S" in your example being missing due to a poor strike - very common on P.07 bayonets.

I have not shot the run-down for a long time, although we still have snap-shooting competitions in the HBSA. Great fun, but my eyes are getting too old for SMLE iron sights these days trying to pick out a sand and black head against sand butts! I prefer my P.14 with aperture sights.

Here are a couple of pictures of my bits and pieces. The cup-dischargers are more readily available, but unfortunately the Home Office still insist these are Section 5, despite a recent court ruling to the opposite!

Regards

TonyE

[DAVE PLATT]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for a great reply!

I have been busily looking over the rifle for all the points you mention and have identified loads of markings! I actually cannot believe how many markings there are on the old lady.

I've taken a few pictures that hopefully will impress you with your expertise and give us some idea of the authenticity of the rifle or whether its a mish mash of various parts.

I have the cut for the cut off, U prefix on all the locations you mention, however the number on the body and bolt end dont match, barrel date is 1916. Cant make the number out under the rear sight, the bayonet boss number matches to the body. There is a slight swell where the volley sight would be, not much though.

What an education!

I've taken lots of photos but only just realised I only have 100k of upload so I will have to attach the rest on a pairs basis or email them direct to you.

Thanks for the thoughts on the WR, there are quite a few options to choose from, it may have to be one of those that remains at best guess level, we will have to see.

Thanks

Dave

Some extra detail photos would help I think.

I would like to see an overall view of the rifle - as TonyE notes it has the original style cocking piece but this is entirely correct and 1916 was the first year Enfield began producing the MkIII* so there are lots of interesting combinations of features (is the receiver cut for the cuttoff? is the forend cut low for the same? Does the foreend still have the "swell" where the volley sight would have been fitted? Does the trigger guard have a wire loop or swivel mount....) all sorts of little anoraky things!

You should find the U prefixed serial number on the rear of the bolt handle, the reciever, the barrel (under the rear handguard - held in place with clips and can be carefully pried off without any other disassembly - you should also find a barrel date there to see if it is the original barrel - often loads of stamps here - close as you are going to get to your "cassette"!), the UNDERSIDE of the rear sight, the bayonet boss on the front band and perhaps the fore-end wood(by the bayonet mount).Do these all match?

My initial reaction is that the WR number is not an official military marking.

I have looked at a LOT of SMLEs and I have not seen anything quite like it before. The closest I have seen is on a batch of rifles repaired/refurbished (FTR'd) in 1953 (about the last time No1 rifles were processed in the UK) FTR 1953 is neatly electropencilled in this location. (BTW these rifles are about the closest you are likely to find to a "new" No1 rifle although many use great war vintage receivers)

The musuem number or other reference (perhaps private) seems a good guess. I have never heard of British rifles of this vintage being marked to individual soldiers (particularly O/Rs) nor permanently stamped to units.

looking forward to more pics.

Chris

The one official thing that is an outside possibility is: there was a repair facility at Weedon that processed a lot of weapons and although I have not seen it in this form before WR could perhaps indicate Weedon Repair.... but I think my money would be on a non official marking. of some sort

[e-remes]

Talking about shooting the 303, I always run the '303 challenge' on that event, 5 rounds (no clip) 1 mag, 1 weapon, a huns head at 200 metres. On the blow of the whistle (time starts) dash forward to the firing point, fill the magazine, load the mag and engage the target in the standing upsupported position, fastest time with most hits wins the prize. It is always very popular. Over the ten days there was £379 in the pot!

Rocketeer, That sounds like a blast! Would that REME TA would let me in I'd be applying for CORPSAAM given the chance. (Ex-25yr VM) I oft enquired about the chance of a range day with .303 (first weapon I ever fired as a 14 year old), SLR, SMG et al. All to no avail. Good luck with your future acqusitions and Battlefield tours.

[DAVE PLATT]

Hi,

Thanks for your mail, the annual Corps SAAM is 10 days, first weekend is a mix reg and TA and then on get into the competition, I cant believe you didnt do that after 25 years!

We used to invite guests, but alas I'm out of that now with being with the Brigade HQ (last 7 years)

My expertise was alway armour, Chieftain,432, CVRT, then Chally 1 and 2, then with the Tank Systems Group specialising on the Challenger armoured repair and recovery vehicle. 1979-2004 then 2005 to present 49 Brigade HQ.

Same as you I fired the 303 in Cadets when I was 13 on a 25m range and without ear defence, it frightened the life out of me! I still have my battledress jacket, the date on the inside is 1942!

I loved the SLR, I have a bunch of trophies, about 25, the wife has them all in the attic, but when I get to France they are all coming out again!!

Didnt care much for the Sten, ha ha what a peice of kit! it was great moving on to the SA80 especially now as we have the A2, its a really good piece of kit.

Were you a VM A or B? Reg or TA or a mix like me.

Thanks for the nod on the France plan, maybe you could get over for a few days and we can chew on the fat of the REME days?

Regards

Dave

Rocketeer, That sounds like a blast! Would that REME TA would let me in I'd be applying for CORPSAAM given the chance. (Ex-25yr VM) I oft enquired about the chance of a range day with .303 (first weapon I ever fired as a 14 year old), SLR, SMG et al. All to no avail. Good luck with your future acqusitions and Battlefield tours.

[TonyE]

I'm not certain but could this be a Northern Ireland number = Weapons Registration? It is not unusual to find even flintlock and percussion weapons marked with a registration number in northern Ireland as part of a single scheme to make weapons traceable during the 'Troubles'. There was also a similar scheme in South Africa, for the same reason. - SW

I have checked the reference to Ireland, and pre-partition there was a requirement under the Irish Registration of Firearms Act of 1843 for all weapons to be registered with the Royal Irish Constabulary and stamped with a number consisting of two letters representing the city or county where the weapon was held followed by a serial number.

"WR" was the registration code for the Cork area, so it seems that your SMLE was owned by somebody in Ireland just after WWI.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

I have checked the reference to Ireland, and pre-partition there was a requirement under the Irish Registration of Firearms Act of 1843 for all weapons to be registered with the Royal Irish Constabulary and stamped with a number consisting of two letters representing the city or county where the weapon was held followed by a serial number.

"WR" was the registration code for the Cork area, so it seems that your SMLE was owned by somebody in Ireland just after WWI.

Regards

TonyE

Excellent info. Tony -- duly noted and tucked away for future ref.

Chris

[Thunderbox]

I have checked the reference to Ireland, and pre-partition there was a requirement under the Irish Registration of Firearms Act of 1843 for all weapons to be registered with the Royal Irish Constabulary and stamped with a number consisting of two letters representing the city or county where the weapon was held followed by a serial number.

"WR" was the registration code for the Cork area, so it seems that your SMLE was owned by somebody in Ireland just after WWI.

Regards

TonyE

Many South African Long Lees and SMLEs coming through Holts auctions at the moment have had a "WRxxxx" number added - I assume that "WR" is also a "Weapon Registry" code there as well.

[e-remes]

Hi Dave

I was a 25 yr reg VM B (incl apprentice college). Can't get in the TA due to Tinnitus- Apparently NOT caused by shooting .

Been out a year and really not enjoying it.

Never got around to CORPSAAM being at small LAD's and being able to get away. Aditionally I never was a great shot

Regards

Iain

[jdajd]

Please wish the old lady a happy anniversary. According to Wikipedia (ducks below sandbags) today marks the 105th anniversary of the introduction of the rifle into British military service.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Many South African Long Lees and SMLEs coming through Holts auctions at the moment have had a "WRxxxx" number added - I assume that "WR" is also a "Weapon Registry" code there as well.

On a South African issued rifle the prefix " WR " is not for Weapons Registry but rather stands for the South African Regiment designation " Witwatersrand Rifles ".

LF

[g6yfb]

You lucky so and so I have only seen an "Original" in a museum, I hope it gives you many years of enjoyment, and I hope you find out a bit more about its history, Good Luck

Graham

[shippingsteel]

On a South African issued rifle the prefix " WR " is not for Weapons Registry but rather stands for the South African Regiment designation " Witwatersrand Rifles ".

Hello LF, you might remember I enquired about this on the previous thread where you displayed this rifle. Its a very nice rifle but I don't accept this statement as being correct.

I understand that Skennerton has noted the W.R. abbreviation as indicating that regiment in his book "The Broad Arrow", but I think that is hardly what is being described here.

It appears that the original serial number has been marked out and replaced with this WR prefix number. A six digit number really does seem large for an individual regiment.!

PS. After searching the net I did find this quote - "The WR serial number is the Registry Number issued by the South African Police, WR for Weapons registry."

I can't say if this is true or not but should be fairly easily verified with a little research. Apparently duplicated serials were required to have these new numbers added. (LINK)

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Shippingsteel,

You may be correct, I was basing my information on the South African abbreviations listed in " The Broad Arrow ".

I also contacted the Witwatersrand Regimental Association Archive in South Africa, and sent them photographs of my rifle. In which they were extremely interested, it appears that the Witwatersrand Rifles have a long history of crack shots and sharpshooters, and with this being very suitable for sharpshooters with its high velocity barrel and modified sights, they told me that it was the type of rifle used by the Regiments sharpshooters.

Clearly the rifle passed to South African Forces, and was renumbered by them in just that one place on the rifle, shown in the photograph.

At the moment, I am not now sure if the " WR " stands for Witwatersrand Rifles, as in Skennerton's book, or for Weapons Registry ?, which I have never heard of before.

Based on the type of rifle, in that it has certain refinements, especially with the high velocity barrel, and modified sights, its clear South African issue marks, I am leaning more towards Witwatersrand Rifles. Hopefully, more information may come to light. I appreciate the information.

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Shippingsteel,

I just took a look at the link you suggested, unfortunately it gives very little information, and relates to modern firearms, and it may be this link that has generated the " WR = Weapons Registry " theory. Having read it, it really does not give any conclusive or substantive information.

Having spoken to the Witwatersrand Regiment people in South Africa, and listened to their long history of crack shots and sharpshooters, and knowing this rifle, and just how accurate it is, and was made to be, I am still leaning towards Witwatersrand Rifles.

LF.

[shippingsteel]

Shippingsteel,

I just took a look at the link you suggested, unfortunately it gives very little information, and relates to modern firearms ...

That is exactly my point when I posted that link. The WR numbers can be found on all manner of weaponry used in South Africa, from Martini-Henry right through to Colt AR-15.!!

They are also found on civilian handguns and ordinary shotguns. One forum also reported a historical Boer War firearm with these serial numbers added so it seems ubiquitous.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Shippingsteel,

It may just be that " WR " has a dual meaning or application, as clearly based on Skennerton's research, which is extensive and usually extremely reliable, the prefix of " WR " on a rifle issued to South African Forces stands

for Witwatersrand Rifles, and for the reasons I have already offered, that ties into this particular type of rifle and its markings.

Also, as you say, there are many other instances of the " WR " being applied to all manner of firearms having no connection whatsoever with the Witwatersrand Rifles, it could be that it has 2 applications and 2 meanings, which would not be unheard of.

I believe there was another posting where " WR " had been applied to an Irish rifle, so perhaps " WR " as well as standing for Witwatersrand Rifles, is also some generic code possibly meaning " Weapons Registry ".

LF.