adamguest Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 I'm new to this forum, but it seems to contain a great deal of expertise! - so I'm hoping someone can help me ID this uniform please - this is a photo of my wife's great grandfather, Edward Coombs. We know very little about him, beyond being born 21 mar 1882 in Camberwell, and losing an eye at some point in the war. Any info that anyone can provide based on this photo would be very welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 I'm new to this forum, but it seems to contain a great deal of expertise! - so I'm hoping someone can help me ID this uniform please - this is a photo of my wife's great grandfather, Edward Coombs. We know very little about him, beyond being born 21 mar 1882 in Camberwell, and losing an eye at some point in the war. Any info that anyone can provide based on this photo would be very welcome... He is a Corporal and marksman in the East Surrey Regiment in the full dress pattern worn in the early 1900s. The cap he is wearing was replaced by a new pattern in 1902, probably shortly after this photo was taken. He is wearing the 2nd pattern of collar badges for that regiment, which also fits with the date. The first pattern was the plain shield bearing the arms of Guildford, but this later changed to have the shield superimposed on a representation of the universal star (like the cap badge below, but without the title scroll). The Regimental Depot was at Kingston-upon-Thames. His 7-button 1902 Pattern Tunic has the white facings (collar and cuffs) that indicate an English or Welsh Regiment of Line Infantry without 'Royal' in its title. His buff leather belt is of 'Slade Wallace' equipment pattern with the general service union locket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim_Grundy Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Not sure but he looks like a corporal in the East Surrey regiment. He's wearing a Queen's South Africa medal with five bars. Wouldn't be surprised if the bars were the state bars - 'Transvaal', "Orange Free State' and 'Cape Colony' - and 'South Africa 1901' and 'South Africa 1902'. A check with the medal rolls would confirm. The larger 'bar' at the top is an unofficial decorative pin to attach the medal to his uniform. The crossed rifles badge on his lower left sleeve denotes a marksman. A look-up of his medal index card, Silver War Badge rolls and to see whether his army service/pension records have survived will tell you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 This Royal Leicesters tunic gives an idea of how his uniform looked in colour, although the shoulder straps are of a slightly different pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Hi Adam - and welcome to the Forum. I can find only one Edward Coombs (and variations) in the East Surreys in WW1: a Corporal, who landed in France on 23 February 1915, subsequently received an SWB and was discharged on 25 August 1916:- Name: Edward Coombs Regiment or Corps: East Surrey Regiment Regimental Number: SR/5995 A copy of the MIC is available to purchase from TNA here if you think this is the right man. Unfortunately, I can't see any related surviving service or pensions papers (you may know that about 70% were destroyed in a direct hit in WW2). I can't see an Edward Coombs in the East Surreys in the Boer War records at the moment, but note Frogsmile's comment about Regiment of Line Infantry and will keep looking. ETA: details of his SWB:- Name: Edward Coombs Discharge Unit: E. Surreys Regiment Number: 5995 Rank: Cpl. Badge Number: 14195 Unit: Infantry (Hounslow) Piece: 3038 List Number: E 0001-0300 Record Group: WO Record Class: 329 in case the experts can get any details from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Not having too much luck with the Boer War rolls. So far, the most likely is this man:- Name: E Coombs Campaign or Service: South Africa - Second Boer War Service Date: 1899-1902 Service Location: South Africa Regiment or Unit Name: 1st Battalion Oxfordshire Light Infantry Regimental Number: 4784 His original entitlement was the three place clasps as identified by Jim and there's a "second supplementary" application, indicating clasps for Orange Free State, Transvaal and the 1902 date clasp and no entitlement to the King's South Africa. Is he at all likely? 1760 of the 2nd Battalion King's Royal Rifles Corps seems to have been entitled to only one clasp. 6007 of the 1st Battalion The Welch had the 1901 and 1902 clasps but appears to have died (also listed as Coombes). 4319 of the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers had clasps for Cape Colony, Transvaal, Tugela Heights and the Relief of Ladysmith and the 1901 and 1902 date clasps (with a note that he was time expired). 5166 of the 2nd Battalion The King's Own Royal Lancaster had the KSA and I can't find a QSA for him. That's all the men with the correct spelling that I can find in the records. For Coombe there's the 2nd Tasmanian Imperial Bushmen, 5th Victorian Mounted Rifles. For Coombes, there's the 17th Lancers, the King's Royal Rifle Corps, the 6th Battalion Middlesex Regiment and the 34th Company 11th Battalion Imperial Yeomanry. Other than that, I don't really know where to look. I can see from the birth records that there's no extra first name so no point at looking at anyone with more initials. Also, all the ones I've looked at seem to be privates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 -The Silver War Badge roll also mentions that 5995 Cpl. Edward Coombs, East Surreys, was discharged due to wounds (rather than sickness) on Aug. 25, 1916, which would fit with the story of him losing an eye. However, it says that he enlisted in the East Surreys on July 28, 1908, which I would think would be too late for the man in this photograph -- unless that is a reenlistment date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 31 December , 2011 Admin Share Posted 31 December , 2011 It may be a re-enlistment - Paul Nixon's indispensable blog has the Regimental Number allocated 1899-1900 http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/east-surrey-regiment-1st-2nd-battalions.html Looks like this mystery will run! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamguest Posted 31 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2011 wow - thank you all very much for all your posts - I'd no idea you could glean so much information! Matt, you paint a tempting story - I confident he lost the eye, as I have a picture of him bandaged in hospital, and later pics of him with an eye patch. So, is seems possible he served c.1901 for a period, then re-enlisted (or was recalled) c.1914 for the war until his injury. Does the Silver War Badge roll give any details (DoB etc) that could confirm we're looking at the same man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Does the Silver War Badge roll give any details (DoB etc) that could confirm we're looking at the same man? Unfortunately not, Adam - purely a list of a man's entitlement, with columns as follows: regimental number, rank, name in full, unit discharged from, number of the badge and certificate, date of enlistment and discharge, cause of discharge (either wounds or sickness under Para no 392 (xvi) of the King's Regulations as per Matt's post) and whether they served overseas or not (in this man's case, yes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 The Great War number verrico has identified is prefixed SR: presumably he was a Special Reservist. Is it, therefore, possible he served in South Africa and left the army, joining the Special reserve on its inception in 1908? Indeed, as a reservist, would he have received an SR number anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamguest Posted 31 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2011 thanks - here's the medal card, in case it contains useful information:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Just for completeness, I missed this chap, but he was discharged in June 1917 and there's no mention of an SWB so I think it's unlikely:- Name: Edward Coombes Regiment or Corps: East Surrey Regiment, Royal Defence Corps, Royal Defence Corps Regimental Number: S/4808, 45585, 96184 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamguest Posted 31 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2011 If his number 5995 was allocated in 1899 (from to the 'armyservicenumbers' blog Ken references), then how does he end up with SR/5995, if the special reserves didn't start until 1908? Would he have retained his original number upon re-enlisting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 Before I use up any remaining credits on FMP to look at this, could this man be of interest? I'm not sure about the QSA given his attestation date. First name(s): Edward Last name: COOMBS Calculated year of birth: 1885 Parish of birth: Hatcham Town of birth: London County of birth: Surrey Age at attestation: 17 years 10 months Attestation date: 29 April 1902 Attestation corps: 4TH E SURREY REGT Attestation soldier number: 2801 Discharge rank: [blank] Discharge corps: East Surrey Regiment - 31st & 70th Foot Discharge soldier number: [blank] The National Archives reference: WO96 / 577 / 129 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 31 December , 2011 Share Posted 31 December , 2011 But then I saw this man:- First name(s): Edward Albert Last name: COOMBS Calculated year of birth: 1884 Parish of birth: Camberwell Town of birth: London County of birth: Surrey Age at attestation:17 years 6 months Attestation date: 15 October 1901 Attestation corps: 5TH BN THE RIFLE BRIGADE Attestation soldier number: 5994 Discharge rank: [blank] Discharge corps: Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) Discharge soldier number: [blank] The National Archives reference: WO96 / 1246 / 289 And I do like the look of him (despite no obvious reference to the East Surreys, but we do have rifles instead) - would the attestation date be inside when he could expect to get a QSA? And of course his number is only one out from the later one... Adam, I wouldn't be too worried about him not having a middle name at baptism - I dismissed him at first and wasn't going to look at the details, particularly with the date of birth being out, but then I remembered that my half-brother's paternal grandfather was also baptised as part of a "job-lot" in a large family group and subsequently ended up appearing younger than he was in the 1911 census - plus his only given name at the baptism was George, but on his marriage certificate he called himself George John for no obvious reason (GJP). So, I'm hopeful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamguest Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Happy new year everyone! Thanks Verrico - I'm fairly sure about his DoB though (year, at least), as it is confirmed by his marriage cert and the 1901 census - which shows him living in Peckham and working as a builders labourer (31 mar 1901) - so he must have signed up after then. Please don't spend money on searches for me though - I'll feel bad! Any pointers on where to search would be very welcome though, as I'm scaling that learning curve... Given Frogsmile's point about the badge on the photo being changed in 1902, this really narrows his sign-up date. Picking up on Jim's point about the Queens South Africa Medal, he would have had to have been posted straight away - would this be normal? (I guess with a high profile campaign and presumably an accompanying recruitment drive, it is reasonable that he was attracted to sign up by this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Happy New Year! Born what looks to be 27 March 1882 - does that sound right? I wouldn't worry about the age thing either - I read a set of papers not so long ago where a serviceman was disputing the date his pension would be paid as they had him down as too young. He had even produced his birth certificate when he enlisted, but the response was, effectively "oh that doesn't matter - it's down to the individual recruiting officer's assessment"! But yes, it is worrying as to whether he could have been trained up and sent out in time, particularly as I didn't come across that man in the relevant medal rolls. I recall reading that the Boer War was the first time becoming a soldier was seen as a respectable job and something to be proud of - apparently a "motley crew" up to that point and the turnaround was due to an inspired Home Secretary. Anyway, to bring it back on topic, what we really need is for his WW1 service or pension papers to have survived which would give the sort of detail you're looking for to confirm that it's the right person - and sadly there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they have. Now and again, some papers crop up mixed in with another set: clearly it was all rather chaotic when they were retrieved but you could wait a long time for someone to come across them and hopefully flag them up here. I do it if I come across stray papers in the hope that they'll be of use to someone at some future point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 A date of July 1908 indicates that Edward Coombes must have served with the 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion. The number 5995 had already been issued to the 3rd Militia Battalion in late August 1907 and when the Special Reserve replaced the militia in 1908, as far as the East Surrey Regiment was concerned, they just kept the old militia number series and continued numbering Special and Extra Reserve men where they'd left off in the militia. So by 1908, for the regular and militia battalions, you had one number series shared by the 1st and 2nd Battalions and one number series each for the 3rd (SR) and 4th (ER) battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 I wonder ... would a man who enlisted after March 1901 be able to reach the rank of corporal so fast by mid 1902 and then hold that rank for the next 14 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 The worrying thing for me is that he just doesn't appear on the QSA (or KSA) lists as far as I can see: no Coombs in the records for East Surrey and no E Coombes or E Coomes. Adam, are you absolutely sure the photo is of Edward and not, say, another family member? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamguest Posted 2 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2012 It never occurred to me to challenge it, but now you ask, I can't be sure - I have no evidence. It was passed to me as a pic of Edward, but it is possible someone saw the later photo of Edward with one eye, saw this photo in the family folder of a man in uniform, and put 2 and 2 together to make 5. So maybe we have 2 people - Edward serving 1908 until discharged due to injury in 1906, and this chap, who served from c.1900. It would certainly explain why Edward was listed on the 1901 census as a builders laborer. He had 4 older brothers - Albert is also on the 1901 census list, so that leaves John Henry Addison COOMBS (26 Jul 1872 - 9 Mar 1914), William F COOMBS (26 Nov 1873 - 5 Apr 1918), and Frederick COOMBS (12 Mar 1877 - c.1952). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 2 January , 2012 Admin Share Posted 2 January , 2012 Came across a Pte 6362 F CoombEs in the Boer War Medal Rolls for the 2nd East Surreys (Cape Colony /Orange Free State/Transvaal/Laings Nek) I don't know enough about the bars to know if that would make the 5 Jim referred to in post 3. btw speaking of experts thanks for putting us right Paul Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 January , 2012 Share Posted 2 January , 2012 This Royal Leicesters tunic gives an idea of how his uniform looked in colour, although the shoulder straps are of a slightly different pattern. They became royalled [my new word for 2012] in 1946. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 2 January , 2012 Share Posted 2 January , 2012 I don't know enough about the bars to know if that would make the 5 Jim referred to in post 3. That man also got the 1901 and 1902 date clasps (only other note "31st RD"), but he does seem more promising. Edward could still be the man who joined up in 1901, particularly if he already had a brother in the Army. I'm not sure how long he would have committed to but could perhaps have been time-served before joining the reserves in 1908 for his continuous service into WW1. ETA - from FMP, Frederick Coombes joined 4th Bn East Surrey regiment with attestation number 122 on 25 September 1897 and was discharged to East Surrey 31st & 70th Foot (no discharge rank or number given). Estimated birth year 1877 and his age given as 20 years 6 months. He gave his birth parish as Wandsworth, London, Surrey. Would that fit in with what you know of Edward's brother, Adam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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