Uniforms, regiment ID

[Mania]

Hi, it is probably easy, but I want to make sure if the POWs from Schneidemuhl in the picture are Scots Guards? Did they fight wearing kilts?

Thanks in advance, any help much appreciated!

M

[roughdiamond]

Other than bandsmen they didn't wear kilts or glengarry's.

Sam

[Blackblue]

Looks like Black Watch tartan....

Rgds

Tim D

[roughdiamond]

Looks like Black Watch tartan....

Rgds

Tim D

The Glengarry's the men are wearing would also be correct for Black Watch, but they weren't the only Kilted Regt to wear a plain Glengarry, Cameron Highlanders did too.

Sam

[Mania]

Thanks for help- so, in other words, they are the Black Watch bandsmen? Very interesting indeed!

[4thGordons]

Thanks for help- so, in other words, they are the Black Watch bandsmen? Very interesting indeed!

No.

Possibly Blackwatch, but no indication they are bandsmen. The bandsmen reference was to the Scots Guards (where only the Bandsmen wore kilts, as per roughdiamond's post).

Chris

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi M,

They look like they’re Black Watch. The photo is early on in the War (1914) as they are still wearing Regimental pattern Leg Dress - shoes, khaki spats, diced-hose, and garter flashes. The jackets the lads are wearing look like a hasty issue too. Cap comforters and balaclavas were often worn instead of Regimental headdress.

Aye,

Tom McC

[west coast]

the guards brigade lance corporal wore two chevrons unlike the rest of the army.

[Lachlan]

I would go with Black Watch too. The tartan is Government sett. The plain blue glengarries worn by the Black Watch (like the ones worn here) didn't have silk rosette backing, whilst the plain blue glengarries worn by the QOCH and pipers of various Scottish regiments did.

It looks like they're wearing coloured hosetops (red/black) as worn by the Black Watch.

The tunic is interesting. It looks like standard issue (before the 1915 utility version was issued) rather than the tunic for kilted troops, but otherwise I think the men look appropriate for 1914. Perhaps the tunics are replacements scrounged while POW's. I'd put my money on them being regulars (1st or 2nd Batt) or early TF's (1/5th Batt) committed to the western front in Autumn/Winter 1914.

[4thGordons]

The tunic is interesting. It looks like standard issue (before the 1915 utility version was issued) rather than the tunic for kilted troops, but otherwise I think the men look appropriate for 1914. Perhaps the tunics are replacements scrounged while POW's. I'd put my money on them being regulars (1st or 2nd Batt) or early TF's (1/5th Batt) committed to the western front in Autumn/Winter 1914.

I believe I am correct in saying that there was no "tunic for kilted troops" There was only one pattern of the Service Dress Jacket and the front skirts were modified at the unit level, something that at first the explosion in demand overwhelmed and then later was officially discouraged (although it clearly continued). It was not until the post-war pattern of Service Dress that the "kilt front" was introduced as a separate pattern.

The absence of buttons (pinched as souvenirs?) suggests to me that these might well be the jackets in which they were captured.

I would agree this has all the hallmarks of early war.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

Second person from left is either

1. a woman with presumably false beard

2. concealing oranges or similar

3. a champion POW PIE eater.

In the above correspondence I take "bandsman" to mean "piper".

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi all,

In my opinion the condition of these soldiers’ kilts does not mirror their jackets. A full-weight kilt creases. I don’t know why it has come about, but I do not think these soldiers are wearing their own jackets.

Aye,

Tom McC

[Mania]

Thanks all for careful investigation, I appreciate any trace.

Why not joining my topic on Schneidemuhl POW here?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173224

[Tinhat47]

Although it looks like they're definitely Black Watch men, is it possible they could be men of the 5th Seaforths?

[Joe Sweeney]

There is a series of German photos that show Black Watch POWs taken in August 1914 (photos taken in Aug 1914) and all show the use of the Universal SD (un-modified)Jackets. I think this was the norm for the 1st Battalion and that these jackets belonged to these men.

This looks like a photo of 1st Bn men from late 1914 -after beard growth and in POW camp--Everything is correct--Jacket, Hose gaiters and Flashes and looks like the gaiters m,ight have been squared off in the front.

There was no Highland Cut SD Jacket at this time and would not be a regular issue pattern until until September 1929. This is when the Service Dress jacket would have a cutaway pattern was approved, “Jackets ORs, Highland and Scottish Regiments”. However, regimental tailors could modify the jackets to the Scottish consistency as long as permission was granted. Originally, even this modification was not permitted. It was not until 4 December 1902 that it became permissible to modify the jacket to a cut away to “show kilt”. Very early in the war this practice was also supposed to be stopped by direction of Army Orders 356 and 391 of 1915 (which were modifications of the Clothing Regs). It was felt that rounding the skirts was unnecessary in wartime as no sporran or purse was to be taken into the field. These orders were for the most part ignored.

Joe Sweeney

[Tom A McCluskey]

Joe,

I reckon the photo is early war, i.e. pre-1st Ypres. As you alluded to (in mentioning tailors), it is worth remembering that the regular battalions of the Black Watch had better access to proper Regimental tailors, in their Transport Lines, than the TF and Service battalions.

The photo below shows the survivors of the 1st Black Watch, post 1st Ypres, at Borre on the 21st November 1914. Note the following:

• SD Jackets are still cutaway

• SD jackets fit the soldiers – unlike the ones in the photos. .

• The wearing of Puttees [shoes and spats were ditched fairly early into the war by the 1st Black Watch]

Further notes about the POW photo:

• It looks like only the right-hand man is wearing Black Watch pattern spats – clipped at the front.

• The other two pairs of spats, shown in the photo, are … not looking very Black Watch, nor fitted properly.

I am probably way off but, to me (and I am trusting my first instinct from my first post), it looks like the SD jackets have been pulled out of a bundle that have been provided for the prisoners of war. The condition of the tunics looks similar to when a series of laundered jackets have come out of a tied bundle; however, in contrast, the kilts do not. The kilts look in good order and ironed.

Aye,

Tom McC

[Joe Sweeney]

Tom,

You are correct the 1st Bn BW had cut away Jackets in 1914.

What I was trying to recall I got the Bn wrong--The 2ndBN A&SH did not have cutaway Jackets in 1914.

The Picture I was thinking of shows a group of A&SH prisoners and 1 BW prisoner taken at Mons or in the retreat. It was published in one of those picture books P Hawthornewaite (SIC) published. All the A&SH had the universal SD jacket and the 1 BW had the cutaway. I do not have scanner set-up so can't scann that photo at the moment.

However, the photo below-Which Belongs to Chris (aka 4thGordons) shows a good mix of Highlanders and French casualties in 1914. Note the A&SH man with Universal SD Jacket--Can only be 2nd Bn.

The original photo in first post cannot be A&SH so all bets are off when they got the Jackets and how.

Joe Sweeney

[Mania]

Thanks for your interest in "my" Schneidemuhl POWs.

As for the caps worn by the two of them: Maybe another photo brings in any clues? By the way, who are the men with flat, round caps, Australians? First from the left must be a German sentry, who are the others?

[Blackblue]

I don't think Australians...they have a Guards look about them I would say.

Rgds

Tim D

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for your interest in "my" Schneidemuhl POWs.

As for the caps worn by the two of them: Maybe another photo brings in any clues? By the way, who are the men with flat, round caps, Australians? First from the left must be a German sentry, who are the others?

All of the PoW photos shown in this thread appear to show soldiers captured during the 1914 fighting (retreat from Mons et al), when with the exception of Scottish units, all British infantry were equipped with the round and stiffened SD cap. Ergo, the men wearing them in the photo could conceivably be from any non Scottish Line regiment, as well as the Guards, although I do agree with blackblues implied reference to the latter's invariable smartness.

[Blackblue]

Did the Guards wear a different pattern cap with a shorter brim that was closer to the eyes...or was this just later with ceremonial uniform?

Rgds

Tim D

[FROGSMILE]

Did the Guards wear a different pattern cap with a shorter brim that was closer to the eyes...or was this just later with ceremonial uniform?

Rgds

Tim D

Tim, my understanding is that they began to adjust the peaks of their new, 1906 pattern coloured forage caps in the 1920s and I imagine that the SD caps were adjusted around the same time. In both cases the intent was to copy the look of the staff type forage caps that they had worn in the 1890s that had the almost vertical (referred to officially as "drooping") peaks. Photographic images of both the new caps prior to the 1920s do not show 'vertical' adjustment of peaks, although the forepart was stiffened in the way described in Joe Sweeney's earlier posts on the subject of SD caps. The excessive and vertical position of peaks seems to have come about during post WW2 National Service and it is notable that it did not appear to be in vogue during the 1930s, as shown in this cigarette card image taken from an original photograph.

[Blackblue]

Cheers mate....much appreciated.....and is that Adolph Hitler on the far left?

TD

[FROGSMILE]

Cheers mate....much appreciated.....and is that Adolph Hitler on the far left?

TD

He certainly looks like it !

This shows the 1890s staff cap for the Scots Guards and you can see how the drooping peak had evolved at that time. The Guards later wished to recapture this look with their new caps of 1905-06.

And 'Guardsman Sweeney' (yes really) modelling the present day version.

[Blackblue]

Cheers mate.

TD