Can someone I.D. this Uniform Please

[Researcher11]

I know it's WW1, but can anyone give me more details on this uniform please ? I would not be surprised if this is a photograph's studio dummy uniform, as I 'think' this man was epileptic & might have failed the medical for WW1. But I might be wrong!

Thank you

Researcher 11

[Tim P]

I am inclined to say Royal West Kents...

not familiar with the cuff badge yet.

[Joe Sweeney]

He is part of the Volunteer Training Corps and the badge on his cuff is a VTC marksman badge I believe. Kind of a home guard and the uniform is VTC.

Joe Sweeney

[Researcher11]

I am inclined to say Royal West Kents...

not familiar with the cuff badge yet.

Thanks for your input. I know he lived in Liverpool, but I've never seen the badge on the cap before, as I say, i would not be surprised if it's a photographer's uniform, I understand they did have dummy uniform for people to have their photo taken in. But I would be delighted to find that this was a real uniform & I could trace his battalion.

Researcher 11

[Researcher11]

He is part of the Volunteer Training Corps and the badge on his cuff is a VTC marksman badge I believe. Kind of a home guard and the uniform is VTC.

Joe Sweeney

Oh thank you Jo. Would there be any records for VTC ? & would he be able to volunteer for that if he failed the medical if he enlisted given he was epileptic ? I know he had many brothers who all enlisted.

Researcher 11

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi,

The cap badge is King's Liverpool Regiment, ties in exactly with the Liverpool connection.

regards

John

[Researcher11]

Hi,

The cap badge is King's Liverpool Regiment, ties in exactly with the Liverpool connection.

regards

John

Thank you John,

Is it still a voluntary training corp - home guard section of the Liverpool Kings reg ? I've never seen the horse badge before.

Thanks

Researcher 11

[Graham Stewart]

He is a member of one of the battalions of the Liverpool Group, Lancashire Volunteer Regt. As of 1916 the Group consisted of the following battalions;-

5th Bn - HQ - Municipal Offices, Dale Street, Liverpool.

6th Bn - HQ - 44 Church Street, Liverpool.

7th Bn - HQ - Toxteth Hall, South Hill Road, Liverpool.

9th(?)Bn - HQ - Southport.

[Graham Stewart]

The Volunteer Training Corps marksmans badge as seen in the photo.

[Researcher11]

He is a member of one of the battalions of the Liverpool Group, Lancashire Volunteer Regt. As of 1916 the Group consisted of the following battalions;-

5th Bn - HQ - Municipal Offices, Dale Street, Liverpool.

6th Bn - HQ - 44 Church Street, Liverpool.

7th Bn - HQ - Toxteth Hall, South Hill Road, Liverpool.

9th(?)Bn - HQ - Southport.

Oh this is so helpful thank you so much. Will there be any records for a volunteer battalion ?

The photo below is a great help

R11

[Graham Stewart]

Sadly very few, as they were the WWI equivalent of the Home Guard, but it may pay to look in Liverpool Record Office or even the Kings Museum to see if anything has survived. One of the better sources for these units is your local newspapers, as they used to have fortnightly "Volunteer Notes" in some 1916+ editions.

[centurion]

Some VTC units were converted to the Royal Defence Corps responsible for guarding railway stations, ports, canals and POWs. Many of its men were too old and/or unfit for overseas service. This would fit with his failing the medical

[Researcher11]

Some VTC units were converted to the Royal Defence Corps responsible for guarding railway stations, ports, canals and POWs. Many of its men were too old and/or unfit for overseas service. This would fit with his failing the medical

He was born in January 1891, so would have been about 25 when war broke out in 1916. I'll look into all your suggestions & this has been a great help to me.

To help me with another dilemma unrelated to this photo. I've read that there was a Russian Battalion of the Liverpool Kings Reg, possibly the 9th battalion, which was for volunteer's who were mostly Jewish immigrants from Russia or Lithuania who had not naturalised, but were not classed as Enemy Aliens, but were known as "Friendly Aliens" Would any of you knowledgeable people know what that uniform or badge looked like ?

R11

[Graham Stewart]

Some VTC units were converted to the Royal Defence Corps responsible for guarding railway stations, ports, canals and POWs. Many of its men were too old and/or unfit for overseas service. This would fit with his failing the medical

Sorry - but no VTC units were converted to the RDC. I think you're thinking of National Reservists and Supernumary Companies belonging to the Territorial Force, which were totally different things.

In 1916 all VTC units and their members were given the option to join the newly formed Volunteer Force, which again was purely a voluntary part-time Home Defence organisation, however not all of them did, those that didn't being obliged to disband or resign.

[centurion]

In 1916 all VTC units and their members were given the option to join the newly formed Volunteer Force,

And which later was largely subsumed by the RDC. I'm awfully sorry but I'm not really sure how many angels you can get on the point of a pin.

[SteveE]

And which later was largely subsumed by the RDC.

I rather think you're barking up entirely the wrong tree. The Volunteer Force and Royal Defence Corps were, and remained, two completely separate entities with their responsibilities covering different aspects of Home Defence. It is though safe to say that these responsibilities had, by the end of 1917, started to 'merge' for want of a better description. Despite this 'merging' of responsibilities the two forces remained separate.

The only units "converted to the Royal Defence Corps responsible for guarding railway stations, ports, canals and POWs" were, as Graham has already stated, formed in April 1916 from National Reservists and Supernumerary Companies belonging to the Territorial Force.

Regards

Steve

[Graham Stewart]

And which later was largely subsumed by the RDC. I'm awfully sorry but I'm not really sure how many angels you can get on the point of a pin.

Centurion - you really should start reading up on the various organisations that made up the British Army - your knowledge is very lacking in the basics. I suggest you start with Army Council Instructions and the formation of the RDC(ACI 841 of 19th April 1916). At no time were any VTC units absorbed into the RDC, which was "full time" soldiering even though at home. The VTC/Volunteer Force were never never recognised fully by the War Office until 1916, nor were they full time they were a part-time "Home Guard".

[Blackblue]

[Researcher11]

Sadly very few, as they were the WWI equivalent of the Home Guard, but it may pay to look in Liverpool Record Office or even the Kings Museum to see if anything has survived. One of the better sources for these units is your local newspapers, as they used to have fortnightly "Volunteer Notes" in some 1916+ editions.

Many thanks to all of you, I didn't mean to cause WW3 with my thread But I appreciate everyones input. So, does the above advice still stand ?

& also my Russian Uniform question on earlier post ...

C&P'd

(To help me with another dilemma unrelated to this photo. I've read that there was a Russian Battalion of the Liverpool Kings Reg, possibly the 9th battalion, which was for volunteer's who were mostly Jewish immigrants from Russia or Lithuania who had not naturalised, but were not classed as Enemy Aliens, but were known as "Friendly Aliens" Would any of you knowledgeable people know what that uniform or badge looked like ? )

Would anyone know what this uniform would look like & if there are any records ?

Many thanks

R11

[FROGSMILE]

Many thanks to all of you, I didn't mean to cause WW3 with my thread But I appreciate everyones input. So, does the above advice still stand ?

& also my Russian Uniform question on earlier post ...

C&P'd

(To help me with another dilemma unrelated to this photo. I've read that there was a Russian Battalion of the Liverpool Kings Reg, possibly the 9th battalion, which was for volunteer's who were mostly Jewish immigrants from Russia or Lithuania who had not naturalised, but were not classed as Enemy Aliens, but were known as "Friendly Aliens" Would any of you knowledgeable people know what that uniform or badge looked like ? )

Would anyone know what this uniform would look like & if there are any records ?

Many thanks

R11

What Graham (and Steve) have told you is definitely correct.

There were a number of battalions comprising of Jewish (and other) volunteers, most notably in the Royal Fusiliers and Middlesex Regiment and being a large and cosmopolitan city it would not surprise me at all if the King's (Liverpool) Regiment raised such a unit.

The 9th Battalion were pre-war Territorial unit so it is unlikely to be the unit concerned. Perhaps it was the 19th (?), who were a war raised Service Battalion, as almost all such alien comprised units were.

You can peruse the battalions raised here: http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm

[Researcher11]

What Graham (and Steve) have told you is definitely correct.

There were a number of battalions comprising of Jewish (and other) volunteers, most notably in the Royal Fusiliers and Middlesex Regiment and being a large and cosmopolitan city it would not surprise me at all if the King's (Liverpool) Regiment raised such a unit.

The 9th Battalion were pre-war Territorial unit so it is unlikely to be the unit concerned. Perhaps it was the 19th (?), who were a war raised Service Battalion, as almost all such alien comprised units were.

You can peruse the battalions raised here: http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm

Thanks for this info. I have an idea of what to ask & where to ask.

I have been looking for my grandfather's service records & found this record, which clashes with an earlier record I found previously for WW1 & wondered if you could give me some advice on this please. I'm not even sure if it is for the same person (my grandfather) as I never met him, he died in 1924 & no photos have survived of him. But my mum's family were all red or auburn haired & the description here is of a sandy haired man & it's caught my interest.

It's dated much earlier than WW1, so I need to know exactly what it is & what to do research further ?

R11

[Researcher11]

If you compare the above info to the info on this postcard home & his service record for WW1 his service number is different.

Could these men be the same person as the 1896 records in post above ?

R11

[FROGSMILE]

If you compare the above info to the info on this postcard home & his service record for WW1 his service number is different.

Could these men be the same person as the 1896 records in post above ?

R11

Yes, it is quite likely to be the same man. By 1914 he was liable to be recalled as a Militia reservist with the King's Regiment. He might then have either been wounded, too old for front line service, or in some other respect physically impaired so that he was transferred to the Labour Corps, where the fitness requirements were less stringent.

The Militia was a very old, voluntary and county-based part-time force for home defence that was revived in 1757, when the 'Militia Act' established militia regiments in all counties of England and Wales. Following the Cardwell/Childers reforms of 1881, the Army was reorganized and, amongst other changes, Militia regiments were attached to units of the regular Army. The Militia was a reserve force and was only liable for service in the United Kingdom and in peace time assembled for a period of annual training. The initial engagement of 6-years required 6-months only of full time service and after that only an annual camp of 4 weeks. From 1854, the Militia was raised solely by voluntary enlistment and the old ballot system was finally abandoned.

The Militia were said to differ from the regular soldiers in that they did not serve continuously for terms of years, and from Volunteers, in that they served only in War or underwent their military training in peacetime, by legal compulsion. Men would volunteer and undertake basic training for several months at an army depot. Thereafter, they would return to civilian life, but report for regular periods of military training (usually on the weapons ranges) and an annual four week training camp. In return, they would receive military pay and a financial retainer (4d per day after 1881), a useful addition to their civilian wage. Of course, many saw the annual camp as the equivalent of a paid holiday. The militia thus appealed to agricultural labourers, colliers and the like, men in casual occupations, who could leave their civilian job and pick it up again.

As mentioned previously the period of engagement was for six years, with re-engagements for periods of four years up to the age of 45 being permitted. Bounties were paid to militiamen at various rates upon enlistment, conclusion of training, re-engagement, enlistment into reserve or special service section,;and other special circumstances. Recruit training, maximum six months, as a rule did not exceed three months. Recruits were either drilled immediately upon enlistment at any time of the year, which became the most usual system, or else at preliminary drills (first instituted in 1860), immediately preceding the annual training of the corps.

The annual training varied with the different branches of the service. The usual term for infantry was 27 days, but when on manoeuvres this was generally extended to 34 days, 56 days being the legal maximum. Artillery and fortress engineers trained for 41 days and submarine mining engineers for 55 days. Training took place for the most part in camp or barracks, and large numbers of militia battalions were latterly called on to take part in field manoeuvres. The militia depots occupied as a rule the same barracks, and officers and men wore (with some small distinctions) the same uniform as the regulars. The militia occupied an important position in the mobilization scheme for national defence. The permanent staff (adjutant, quartermaster, and an establishment of senior non-commissioned officers and buglers or drummers, all regulars) was engaged during the non-training period of the year in recruiting, care of arms, clothing etc, and in drilling recruits.

Under the reforms introduced by Secretary of State for War Hugh Childers in 1881, the militia infantry regiments were redesignated as numbered battalions of regiments of the line, ranking after the two regular battalions. Typically, an English, Welsh or Scottish regiment would have two militia battalions (the 3rd and 4th) and Irish regiments three (numbered 3rd - 5th).

NB: Use these two links to 'research' further information about his time with the Militia:

1. http://www.nationala....-1757-1914.pdf

2. http://www.britishor...bo-militia.aspx

[Researcher11]

Yes, it is quite likely to be the same man. By 1914 he was liable to be recalled as a Militia reservist. He might then have either been wounded, too old for front line service or in some other respect physically impaired so that he was transferred to the Labour Corps, where the fitness requirements were less stringent.

The Militia was a very old, voluntary and county-based part-time force for home defence that was revived in 1757, when the 'Militia Act' established militia regiments in all counties of England and Wales. Following the Cardwell/Childers reforms of 1881, the Army was reorganized and, amongst other changes, Militia regiments were attached to units of the regular Army. The Militia was a reserve force and was only liable for service in the United Kingdom and in peace time assembled for a period of annual training. The initial engagement of 6-years required 6-months only of full time service and after that only an annual camp of 4 weeks. From 1854, the Militia was raised solely by voluntary enlistment and the old ballot system was finally abandoned.

The Militia were said to differ from the regular soldiers in that they did not serve continuously for terms of years, and from Volunteers, in that they served only in War or underwent their military training in peacetime, by legal compulsion. Men would volunteer and undertake basic training for several months at an army depot. Thereafter, they would return to civilian life, but report for regular periods of military training (usually on the weapons ranges) and an annual four week training camp. In return, they would receive military pay and a financial retainer (4d per day after 1881), a useful addition to their civilian wage. Of course, many saw the annual camp as the equivalent of a paid holiday. The militia thus appealed to agricultural labourers, colliers and the like, men in casual occupations, who could leave their civilian job and pick it up again.

In 1871 an important constitutional change was made. It was part of the new army system inaugurated in that year that the control of the militia should be removed from the lord-lieutenant of the county and vested wholly in the Crown. Various amendments and new enactments followed, all in the direction of increasing the usefulness of the militia, rendering it more efficient and readier for service, though at the same time making it more and more a means for supplying recruits, both officers and men, to the regular army. The officers, who were commissioned by the Crown, were in 1877 made subject at all times to military law. Non-commissioned officers and men were only so subject when embodied or out for training, with extension in the case of men convicted of offences committed during training until the expiration of the punishment.' Enlistment was voluntary, but compulsory service by ballot remained. This, though here mentioned as part of a process of " regularizing " the militia, was in fact a reform that was advisable under any conditions.

As mentioned previously the period of engagement was for six years, with re-engagements for periods of four years up to the age of 45 being permitted. Bounties were paid to militiamen at various rates upon enlistment, conclusion of training, re-engagement, enlistment into reserve or special service section,;and other special circumstances. Recruit training, maximum six months, as a rule did not exceed three months. Recruits were either drilled immediately upon enlistment at any time of the year, which became the most usual system, or else at preliminary drills (first instituted in 1860), immediately preceding the annual training of the corps.

The annual training varied with the different branches of the service. The usual term for infantry was 27 days, but when on manoeuvres this was generally extended to 34 days, 56 days being the legal maximum. Artillery and fortress engineers trained for 41 days and submarine mining engineers for 55 days. Training took place for the most part in camp or barracks, and large numbers of militia battalions were latterly called on to take part in field manoeuvres. The militia depots occupied as a rule the same barracks, and officers and men wore (with distinctions mentioned previously) the same uniform as the regulars. Themilitia occupied an important position in the mobilization scheme for national defence. The permanent staff (adjutant, quartermaster, and an establishment of senior non-commissioned officers and buglers or drummers, all regulars) was engaged during the non-training period of the year in recruiting, care of arms, clothing etc, and in drilling recruits.

Under the reforms introduced by Secretary of State for War Hugh Childers in 1881, the remaining militia infantry regiments were redesignated as numbered battalions of regiments of the line, ranking after the two regular battalions. Typically, an English, Welsh or Scottish regiment would have two militia battalions (the 3rd and 4th) and Irish regiments three (numbered 3rd - 5th).

NB: Use these two links to 'research' further information about his time with the Militia:

1. http://www.nationala....-1757-1914.pdf

2. http://www.britishorigins.com/help/aboutbo-militia.aspx

Oh, this is exciting news for me, thank you! I know that he died in January 1924, from myocardial degeneration, from the effects of being gassed in the late war, this is on his DC & I know he was in France, from his postcard, but I know very little else. He was born in 1879, so the age fitted with the postcard & WW1 records, but it is heartwarming to read his description & identity marks from knowing nothing about him, altho I have traced his family back to 1573, as they were one of the oldest families in Liverpool. Couldl there be more records at the National Archives at Kew on his militia service records ? A friend looked for his WW1 records but sadly, none have survived.

Incidentally, after I posted these posts on my grandfather, I then thought it better to start a new thread away from the uniform subject, but I don't know where that new thread has gone as I 'thought' I had put it on the document section & now can't find it... don't come on this website much so still not used to it. So there's another thread floating about with same questions.

Thanks you

R11

[tipperary]

Your other thread is on 'interpreting service records and medal index cards.john