Artillery Officer's Tunic and Introduction.

[Mark88]

Hello Ladies & Gentlemen,

New to the Forum and just wondering if anyone has an opinion on the tunic illustrated below. Hope you don't mind me asking, but I would be very interested in hearing, as I know there are some very erudite people posting on this Forum. It does have an unusual story attached, which I will post another time, if anyone is indeed interested.

Perhaps it is in order in a first post to explain my interest in the Great War.

Maternal Grandfather crippled for life in Italy, (also wounded on the Western Front), with the 1/8^th Worcestershires; Wife's Great Uncle Killed in September 1918, with the 17^th Battalion RWF, and another, more distant relative, killed in July 1918 – he was a Marine of the 2^nd Battalion RMLI, 63^rd RN Division.

It is all just too sad and emotive to ignore, and, although my Grandfather gave me his medals when I was quite young – mainly I suspect to try and keep me quiet - and other items came my way when he died; despite repeated attempts to question him, he basically would tell me nothing other than about the good times he recalled with his chums. When pressed he became irritated and that signalled the end of conversation on the subject! I was just too young to know what questions to ask, or how to ask them. He died leaving me intrigued and fatally fascinated by what he left unsaid.

A vow of silence came home with the survivors, and almost all took their stories to the grave and beyond. All I know I have discovered since, and I know many can tell the same story.

Many Thanks,

Mark.

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[delta]

Hello Mark - welcome to the Forum

Please tell us more

Stephen

[Mark88]

Hello Stephen,

Many thanks for your kind reply.

Before continuing, could I ask your help, please? It must be me having a senior moment, or something, but I can't seem to upload a picture of the tunic mentioned!!

Have used photobucket to do this, but, as you can see, no joy. Have you any idea where I am going wrong, please?

Kind Regards,

Mark.

[ianjonesncl]

[Muerrisch]

Lieutenant-colonel

Territorial

Queen's South Africa and King's South Africa campaign medals.

service 1914-15 red chevron, and one year blue thereafter

Jacket does NOT have 1914 ribbon, which suggests EITHER not qualified, which in turn suggests arrived at front between 23 Nov and 31 Dec 1914,

OR suggests jacket frozen in time after Jan 1918 [overseas chevrons "invented"] and before 1914-15 medal promulgated which was from memory late in 1918 or early in 1919.

OR that he did not bother to apply.

No British War medal or Victory medal, but these often turned up very late.

I also note that officers had to apply for all their campaign medals.

No evidence of wound badge.

I hazard these conclusions:

arrived Front late 1914, served into his second year, then invalided [not wounded] or otherwise discharged.

We shall see!

[Mark88]

Gentlemen - As I said, much erudition on this forum!

Ianjonescl, do please tell me how you got the picture to appear - for which I sincerely thank you - as I would like to post another view, which does show the wound stripe, which I would like Grumpy to see.

Could I ask any interested Pals to look at the jacket and its insignia closely and perhaps offer any opinion they may have.

As I said, there is an unusual story attached to this jacket, but perhaps not what may be thought on first pass. I am itching to tell, but really would appreciate some further input, as Grumpy was kind enough to do.

Incidentally, he came very close in one of his most appreciated comments.

Many Thanks for your interest.

Mark.

[ianjonesncl]

• Go to the link for the photo - copy url
• On the post toolbar click the icon 2nd right from the smiley - should say insert image
• past url into image
• press insert image button
• and..hopefully the picture will appear

[Mark88]

Very many thanks for that - will now give it a go!!

[Mark88]

Ianjonescl - was entering the wrong link, many thanks again - I think we are in business.

Incidentally, I am also most interested in the Artillery of the Great War. My Grandfathers best mate - from childhood - was an RFA Gunner and I managed to interview him and tape it at the same time, not long before he died. He was 63rd Div. Artillery at the time of the 21st March 1918 show. He told me much about this, his experiences with other RFA Brigades, and, of my own Grandfather's childhood up to when they both joined up.

Some years ago, I had a copy of the Royal Artillery War Commemoration Book named to a Colonel of the Northumbrian Brigade, but, was stupid enough to part with it when going through a financially hard time. Still kicking myself!!

[wainfleet]

Mark

That is quite a nice tunic, but little can be added to what Grumpy has already said. The service chevrons tell us he served overseas in 1914 and in one other year - maybe 1915, maybe not. If he was a casualty, he must have gone back to the front and been killed in 1918, as service chevrons are up, but I am inclined to think he was probably invalided out. He would have been in his 30s when the war began, possibly older, so maybe his health gave out.

If there are any other clues I'm missing, I give up. What are they?

If you are interested in the artillery in the Great War you should try and get hold of "The War Of The Guns", by Aubrey Wade, an RFA signaller. It's one of the most vivid of all Great War memoirs.

Regards,

W.

[Mark88]

Hello Wainfleet,

Many thanks for your response, and most interesting it is!

Later, I will get some additional pictures into photobucket, upload them, and then spill the beans.

Managed to get a copy of The War Of The Guns some years ago from the local bookfair and yes, fully agree with your comments on it.

Kind Regards,

Mark

[Andrew Upton]

The service chevrons tell us he served overseas in 1914 and in one other year - maybe 1915, maybe not.

Or quite possibly more than one other year - as the subsequent stripes were for accruing 12 months overseas service (allowing for up to 4 weeks leave home to count towards it) he could have, say, accumulated 3 months overseas in 1915 and the same in 1916, 1917 and 1918. Thus serving overseas in every year of the war but still only being entitled to the two stripes.

[Muerrisch]

Yes, I agree with that interpretation of AO4/1918, which is poorly drafted in my opinion, and open to several interpretations.

[ianjonesncl]

He was 63rd Div. Artillery at the time of the 21st March 1918 show.

2nd line 1st Northumbrian Brigade RFA - 63rd Royal Naval Division

He told me much about this, his experiences with other RFA Brigades, and, of my own Grandfather's childhood up to when they both joined up.

Some years ago, I had a copy of the Royal Artillery War Commemoration Book named to a Colonel of the Northumbrian Brigade.

Can you remember his name ?

[Mark88]

Do keep some records of books, etc - will look and get back to you asap

[Mark88]

Have looked, but no, for some reason I did not make a note of the inscription on the appropriate page provided in these books. This is a looooooooooong shot from pure memory, but the surname 'Percy' seems to be lurking around in my all too fallible memory. Does that make any sense to you?

[Mark88]

Hello Gentlemen,

The story of the tunic. This was purchased in October from Pickering Market, during the Reenactment weekend held there every year. When I first saw it, it had Scouting badges affixed, Hussar cuffs, football buttons, no shoulder straps and a belt fitted. But – it was made from whipcord cloth by a military tailor – J.G. Plumb & Co. of Westminster, London – and was named to a W.J. Genese.

Having looked long and hard for a suitable Great War Officer's tunic at a price I could afford, and drawn a total blank, I knew I would have to try other means and, basically, manufacture my own – IF a suitable basis could be sourced. Eventually, I found this tunic, which cost the princely sum of 30 Pounds, and with a little ingenuity and much help from a Dressmaker wife, the result is as seen.

Further research into W.J. Genese and the Scouting movement revealed that he had been the Imperial Headquarters Field Commissioner in the early 1940s and was known affectionately as 'Uncle Bill'. For a moment I did waver, as none of us much like to interfere with history, but, I had bought it for the purpose and knew that I was unlikely to find an equivalent item for the same price and decided to go ahead and carry out the necessary alterations to the garment.

Unfortunately, we did not take any photographs of the process for some reason, but below are some pictures of the tunic with belt, badges and football buttons removed and the left Hussar cuff partly unpicked.

The 'plates' for the frogging were made from the cuff material, which detaches from the sleeve when fully unpicked. Chevrons were fashioned from Sergeant's stripes, unpicked from their backing and pressed flat and then moulded to the shape of the 'plates'. To apply the 'plates' and all the frogging, the sleeves have to be completely opened along the top seam up to around the elbow – this to give a flat surface on which to work and get the layout right. The beading between the chevrons encircling the sleeves was made by stripping some French Kepi beading to reveal the twin strands of cord inside. Lengths were then joined together by 'spot welding' with Copydex adhesive and hand sewn between the rank chevrons. When finished, the whole was painted with a weak solution of coffee, to get some feeling of age into the job.

The shoulder straps were made from the redundant belt, and the shoulders have to be fully opened, lining and internal padding pulled aside in order to insert the straps.

The pips, crowns and insignia were already to hand, but I have recently realised that, although photographic evidence exists to prove that Territorial Artillery Officers wore the flaming bomb collars minus the 'Ubique' scroll beneath, they also wore an item with the laurel wreaths on the scroll instead of the word, as in the cap badge. I have had no luck finding a pair of these; if anyone can point me in the right direction – have tried eBay, etc – I would be most obliged.

I wanted to represent a Territorial Artillery Lt. Colonel, perhaps of late 1916, (who had seen service in the Boer War), and had been out of the line for most of that year, with a wound represented by the single wound stripe affixed. Can I ask Grumpy, Wainfleet and any others interested to perhaps give a judgement on that and, if I am in error, I will alter it to how they feel it should be.

When I asked any interested Pals to look closely at the tunic and insignia, I did not realise that I was asking possibly the wrong question! But – it did bring forth all your most expert and informative comments on how I had presented the tunic, and I was genuinely surprised that no one picked up on the manufacture of the tunic itself! I hope that I can draw the conclusion that we have done a reasonable job on that score, but would still appreciate any comments – good or bad – on this aspect of the garment.

Thank you all for your comments and interest, they have reassured me to a great degree that I have a reasonable tunic in my collection. It has not been done to deceive and will never go on to the open market and be sold as genuine.

Many Thanks Again,

Mark.

[wainfleet]

We've been had!

Mark, take no notice of Grumpy who really is living up to his name today. You haven't destroyed anything historically significant, and if there is no intention to deceive anyone else in the future, I don't see what harm has been done. You've managed a quite remarkable re-creation for a few quid! A very convincing job, and I congratulate you on it.

Best wishes,

W.

[Mark88]

Wainfleet - Many, many thanks for that!!

I did not do this to fool or deceive anyone - I did it for the reasons you state. Being called a fraud and a hoaxer did, I must admit, both hurt and made me angry!!

Thank you for your kind comments, you have understood completely why I did this. If posting details of that tunic has offended anyone else, I do apologise - that was never my intention.

Thanks again, Wainfleet - you certainly poured oil on my troubled waters!

Regards,

Mark.

[Muerrisch]

I can see that my remarks were excessive, and I will delete.

However, and it is a big however, you did waste a fair bit of my time. Digging out the AO on the overseas chevrons, and then reading it thoroughly, and then tracking and reading the several amendments, was not done in ten seconds.

I think you way you went about matters was unwise: much better to ask

"what do you think about this faked RA Lt-Col jacket, all my own work!"

or

"I don't pretend this is kosher, but how good is it?"

I for one would have said "B****y marvellous.

[Mark88]

Grumpy - I appreciate that and I do sincerely apologise for wasting your time.

As I said, I realised I was in error and had asked the question wrongly; I was thinking people would pick up more so on the construction of the garment, but should have known that it would be taken seriously by the way I now know people respond on this Forum. I should have thought more before I rushed to post, and in doing so I forgot the Law of Unforseen Consequence!! As you say, I was unwise.

Obviously, I did not want my first post to upset anyone, and, again, I do apologise for - albeit unintentionally - irritating you.

It is a lesson learned - perhaps better at the outset than later.

Pax, I hope!

Regards,

Mark.

[Muerrisch]

Grumpy - I appreciate that and I do sincerely apologise for wasting your time.

As I said, I realised I was in error and had asked the question wrongly; I was thinking people would pick up more so on the construction of the garment, but should have known that it would be taken seriously by the way I now know people respond on this Forum. I should have thought more before I rushed to post, and in doing so I forgot the Law of Unforseen Consequence!! As you say, I was unwise.

Obviously, I did not want my first post to upset anyone, and, again, I do apologise for - albeit unintentionally - irritating you.

It is a lesson learned - perhaps better at the outset than later.

Pax, I hope!

Regards,

Mark.

Pax

[Mark88]

Many Thanks.

[steenie]

I have just read down this thread and was confused as soon as I saw the jacket. Most if not all SD of this time has a seam around at waist level with a longer 'skirt' (note the SD I have attached).The cut of this jacket discounting the cuff titles was much more WW2 or later. Mind you, as all you guys, who I respect were so keen to say it was real, as I read down I just doubted my own opinion. Then wack! A good effort though nonetheless.

.

[Mark88]

Hello Steenie,

Many thanks for you comments - I was hoping the forum Pals would pick up more so on the configuration and construction of the jacket, as you have.

The jacket is dated 1923, and whipcord material, as this tunic is made of, I have rarely seen in WW2 or later tunics.

At present there is a Great War RFC tunic up for sale on a well-known auction site - see picture - which does not appear to have a waist seam, but, I do agree that, generally, your comments are correct.

That is a very nice tunic you have there - thanks for posting a picture.

Kind Regards,

Mark.