Bottle green uniform

[davyr]

My Grandfather's army records were amongst those destroyed in 1940. I know he was in the Royal Engineers by 1914, but I also remember him telling me that he joined up before the war began. I'm guessing this was in 1913, as he witnessed the fatal air crash of Colonel Samuel Cody at Aldershot in that year, and I assume he was in training at the time.

He joined up expecting to wear a scarlet tunic like that of the recruiting sergeant who enlisted him, and was disappointed to be given a bottle green one instead! As he was living in East London at the time, would it be reasonable to assume that his first unit was The London Regiment (Rifle Brigade)?

[centurion]

My Grandfather's army records were amongst those destroyed in 1940. I know he was in the Royal Engineers by 1914, but I also remember him telling me that he joined up before the war began. I'm guessing this was in 1913, as he witnessed the fatal air crash of Colonel Samuel Cody at Aldershot in that year, and I assume he was in training at the time.

This would seem unlikely as the crash was at a wood near Ball Hill. What he might have witnessed was the funeral which was at Aldershot

[centurion]

The London Regiment was part of the Territorials (part time volunteers) and it would seem unlikely for some one to join this and then quite quickly become a driver in the RE. Training would not be at Aldershot. It would also seem unusual for a recruiting sergeant in a scarlet uniform to be recruiting for this territorial unit in 1913.

You mention in another thread that he spoke of serving in Ireland. Some of the first auxiliaries used in Ireland and made up of ex service men were initially dressed in bottle green jackets with khaki trousers. Could his memory have time shifted?

[Steven Broomfield]

He'd have been sadly disappointed if he wanted to wear a scarlet tunic anyway: didn't the RE wear blue?

[centurion]

Further to the above the Auxiliaries wore a silver (coloured) cap badge (essentially the Royal Irish Constabulary badge) which could equate to the silver badge you mention in another thread. (This was not of huge value and might have been accepted as a token payment in the situation you refer to in that thread).

[centurion]

He'd have been sadly disappointed if he wanted to wear a scarlet tunic anyway: didn't the RE wear blue?

No http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad123/RabbleRouser241_photo/retunic300.jpg

[davyr]

This would seem unlikely as the crash was at a wood near Ball Hill. What he might have witnessed was the funeral which was at Aldershot

To be fair to Grandad, he didn't actually say he was at Aldershot at the time - I was putting two and two together (and possibly making 5), based on this snippet from the New York Times, which suggested the crash itself was at Aldershot:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B13FC3C5417738DDDA10894D0405B838DF1D3

In fact, what he actually told me was that he'd seen Buffalo Bill killed (I understand the two men were often confused with each other)! I don't know if he was embroidering his story for an impressionable kid (me), but he described quite graphically how Cody's legs had been compressed into his torso by the impact.

Thanks for the other replies, which may very well account for the silver badge and perhaps even the bottle green jacket. I'm sure he did mention "Rifle Brigade", but it was a very long time ago and I may have mis-remembered his words.

[trajan]

... but it was a very long time ago and I may have mis-remembered his words.

The good and lucky thing is that you heard those words! Time (and this forum) will eventually sort out most of what's what.

Trajan

[FROGSMILE]

He'd have been sadly disappointed if he wanted to wear a scarlet tunic anyway: didn't the RE wear blue?

The RE switched to scarlet after the Napoleonic wars (they were fed up with being mistaken as French) and wore it right up until the withdrawal of full dress. They continue to do so with their mess uniforms today.

[FROGSMILE]

To be fair to Grandad, he didn't actually say he was at Aldershot at the time - I was putting two and two together (and possibly making 5), based on this snippet from the New York Times, which suggested the crash itself was at Aldershot:

http://query.nytimes...4D0405B838DF1D3

In fact, what he actually told me was that he'd seen Buffalo Bill killed (I understand the two men were often confused with each other)! I don't know if he was embroidering his story for an impressionable kid (me), but he described quite graphically how Cody's legs had been compressed into his torso by the impact.

Thanks for the other replies, which may very well account for the silver badge and perhaps even the bottle green jacket. I'm sure he did mention "Rifle Brigade", but it was a very long time ago and I may have mis-remembered his words.

If you heard Rifle Brigade and it has stuck in your mind for all these years then it is quite likely that he was in that regiment, who did indeed wear dark green jackets until the advent of service dress in 1902 and even after that the full dress was green until its withdrawal in 1914.

[centurion]

I'm sure he did mention "Rifle Brigade"

The rifle units of the London Regiment wore grey uniforms before adopting khaki. If he had joined one of these rifle units, being an East Ender it would have been most likely the Poplar and Stepney Rifles which became the 1/17th (County of London) Battalion but he wouldn't have got a bottle green uniform. He'd have had to join the London Irish Rifles - 1/18th (County of London) Battalion and become a (bag)piper to get one of those (and he'd have had to pay for it himself).

Re the Cody crash - checking the map reference Ball Hill is in Farnborough not Aldershot. The crash was witnessed by Cody's sons and members of the RFC. The gory details were reported (with varying degrees of sensationalism and accuracy) by all the papers. The funeral procession in Aldershot was attended by an estimated crowd of 50,000.

Cody did hold wild west shows in London. He does seem to have encouraged the confusion with Buffalo Bill.

[centurion]

If you heard Rifle Brigade and it has stuck in your mind for all these years then it is quite likely that he was in that regiment, who did indeed wear dark green jackets until the advent of service dress in 1902 and even after that the full dress was green until its withdrawal in 1914.

But davyr referred to the London Regiment - their rifle units were designated as the London Rifle Brigade - quite a different matter with grey dress uniforms.

[FROGSMILE]

But davyr referred to the London Regiment - their rifle units were designated as the London Rifle Brigade - quite a different matter with grey dress uniforms.

Yes I know well what the London Regiment were and what they wore. I was responding to his point that he might have mixed things up.....it therefore might well have been the regular Rifle Brigade, as opposed to 'London' Rifle Brigade, as the former did have the green tunics that he referred to and who always recruited well from London. There was no mention by him of grey, but there was of green, hence my reasoning.

In the end it all depends on whether he joined as a regular, or a territorial and from what davyr has said, my interpretation is that it was 'probably' as a regular.

[centurion]

Yes I know well what the London Regiment were and what they wore.

But perhaps davyr didn't know the difference between the London Rifle Brigade and the Rifle Brigade - everybody knows what the Rifle Brigade wore and there could have been confusion. However I very much doubt that a new recruit would get a green dress uniform until well after he'd passed basic training at Colchester. If he joined in 1913 its difficult to see how he could be a Royal Engineer driver by the outbreak of war. Moreover the 2nd and 4th battalions were in India in 1913 (and the 3rd in Cork).

[squirrel]

The London Irish Rifles full dress pre 1908 was rifle green, the jacket having a lighter green collar and cuffs. The band, and later when pipers were adopted those also, wore rifle green as did the riflemen. There is no record of when rifle green was worn in preference to grey. By 1906, rifle green and rifles busbies (or shakos if you like) were worn by OR's, pipers and buglers and peaked caps by the bandsmen.

The London Irish were affiliated to the Rifle Brigade pre WW1 not the London Rifle Brigade.

[centurion]

The London Irish were affiliated to the Rifle Brigade pre WW1 not the London Rifle Brigade.

The London Irish Rifles were 1/18th (County of London) Battalion of the London Regiment and part of the London Rifle Brigade Post 1908 only the pipers wore green. An earlier Caton Woodville print shows the rank and file wearing grey albeit a slightly darker shade to the other riflemen in the London Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

Without wishing to go even further than you have drawn matters away from the OPs query, Squirrel is correct that before WW1 the LIR were associated directly with the (Regular) Rifle Brigade and not the (Territorial) London Rifle Brigade.

The London Irish Volunteers was founded in the Freemasons Tavern, Great Queen Street on 5th December 1859.

Originally formed in February 1860 during the Victorian Volunteer Movement as the 28th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.

On the 3rd September 1880 Re-numbered 16th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps and in 1881 Became a Volunteer Battalion of ..........the Rifle Brigade.

1908 the London Irish were transferred to the Territorial Force as the 18th (County of London) Bn, London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).

[davyr]

Sorry to have caused a lot of confusion! I was told all these things when the chap in question was well into his 60s, so it's quite possible he was mis-remembering. Another poster on here, Steviebee, who is a great-nephew of the soldier, has suggested in an email to me that he may have joined as a territorial before becoming a driver with the RE.

[steviebee]

Sorry to have caused a lot of confusion! I was told all these things when the chap in question was well into his 60s, so it's quite possible he was mis-remembering. Another poster on here, Steviebee, who is a great-nephew of the soldier, has suggested in an email to me that he may have joined as a territorial before becoming a driver with the RE.

Hi Davyr, the Tredegar rd drill hall was home to the 17th London Popular & Stepney Rifles, they may have had other units there as well. When I was a territorial I was in a Field Ambulance Unit, we also had Engineers, RCT and even a few chaps from pay corps. My Dad used to say his uncles joined the Territorials to get a decent pair of boots and a holiday once a year!

Regards

Stevebee.

[centurion]

Without wishing to go even further than you have drawn matters away from the OPs query, Squirrel is correct that before WW1 the LIR were associated directly with the Rifle Brigade and not the London Rifle Brigade.

The London Irish Volunteers was founded in the Freemasons Tavern, Great Queen Street on 5th December 1859.

Originally formed in February 1860 during the Victorian Volunteer Movement as the 28th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps.

On the 3rd September 1880 Re-numbered 16th Middlesex (London Irish) Rifle Volunteer Corps and in 1881 Became a Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade.

1908 the London Irish were transferred to the Territorial Force as the 18th (County of London) Bn, London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).

Perfectly true but you need to add that from 1908 they were part of the London Rifle Brigade!

[centurion]

Sorry to have caused a lot of confusion! I was told all these things when the chap in question was well into his 60s, so it's quite possible he was mis-remembering. Another poster on here, Steviebee, who is a great-nephew of the soldier, has suggested in an email to me that he may have joined as a territorial before becoming a driver with the RE.

Possible - however legally he would have to ask to be transferred from the territorials to the regular army as he would already have signed papers for the former. In many regiments this was not unusual as men transferred from a territorial or volunteer battalion to a regular battalion on the recommendation of their battalion commander and after signing up for overseas service. However the London Regiment had no regular battalions. The King's Royal Rifle Corps had both territorial and regular battalions but this would not explain how he got into the RE. Of course he could have enlisted with the RE and sort of forgot to tell them he was already in a territorial unit, in doing so he would have committed one or more offences which could have come to light when his territorial unit started asking where he'd got to.

[FROGSMILE]

Perfectly true but you need to add that from 1908 they were part of the London Rifle Brigade!

Why the exclamation mark? You do not even seem to have bothered to read the first sentence.

The London Irish Rifles (LIR) have never been a "part of" the London Rifle Brigade, they were a part of the London Regiment, as the 18th (County of London) Bn, London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).

The London Rifle Brigade were another battalion within that same London Regiment. The London Rifle Brigade (LRB), was formed as the 1st London Rifle Volunteer Corps in 1859. In 1908 the 1st Londons became the 5th (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade).

In short, the LRB were the 5th Battalion of the London Regiment and the LIR were the 18th Battalion of the London Regiment. They were independent of each other, other than by association, along with all the other battalions, as part of the London Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

However the London Regiment had no regular battalions. The King's Royal Rifle Corps had both territorial and regular battalions but this would not explain how he got into the RE. Of course he could have enlisted with the RE and sort of forgot to tell them he was already in a territorial unit, in doing so he would have committed one or more offences which could have come to light when his territorial unit started asking where he'd got to.

Neither the Rifle Brigade, nor the King's Royal Rifle Corps had their own (i.e. 'badged') Territorial Battalions, although they had had Volunteer Battalions previous to 1908. Instead, after 1908, they were each affiliated with a number of Rifle battalions within the London Regiment who thus became their de facto Territorials, but it was a much looser arrangement than that enjoyed by the other regiments of the Line. This rather woolly arrangement was found unsatisfactory in the midst of a World War and after the Battle of the Somme, in July 1916, the London Regiment was disbanded as a separate entity and the various Rifle battalions within it became formally aligned with, and part of, their sponsoring Regular Rifle Regiments. The other battalions that were not Rifles similarly became parts of their sponsor Regiments, most notably the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment and the Royal Fusiliers, but also the Cameron Highlanders and even the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

[squirrel]

part of"[/u] the London Rifle Brigade, they were a part of the London Regiment, as the 18th (County of London) Bn, London Regiment (London Irish Rifles).

Thank you for confirming this.

[SteveE]

also the Cameron Highlanders and even the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

FG

Agreed with everything you said up to that last line? You may well be right but I thought the various London Regiment battalions were affiliated to King's Royal Rifle Corps, Rifle Brigade, Royal Fusiliers, Middlesex Regiment, The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment), East Surrey Regiment, Royal Irish Rifles, Royal West Kent Regiment and Gordon Highlanders, not the Cameron Highlanders or Royal Berkshire Regiment?

Regards

Steve