His Majestys Defence Force

[Keith_history_buff]

I've just come across a pension card for what looks like a former Defence Force soldier

https://www.fold3.com/image/644194994/?xid=991

Name:	Henry Jones
Gender:	Male
Rank:	Pte
Record Type:	Disability
Residence Place:	Newport Mon
Military Service Region:	Wales, Wales
Military Country:	Wales
Service Number:	1/MON/249
Corps, Regiment or Unit:	Defonce Force Monmautr
Service Branch:	Military (Army)
Title:	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:	Pension Record Ledger
Reference Number:	5/MJ/No.9237

[Matlock1418]

On 06/11/2019 at 19:08, RaySearching said:

Thanks to the Western Front Association saving the pension records 

The cause of Elcoates death is revealed

 

Gun shot wound to the head, accidental

Joseph Abraham ELCOATE, 154 His widow did not get a pension as a pension ledger page reveals: Refusal. Widow living apart and not supported by late husband 6.4.22

M

Edited 27 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

On 24/12/2022 at 18:56, Keith_history_buff said:

I've just come across a pension card for what looks like a former Defence Force soldier

https://www.fold3.com/image/644194994/?xid=991

Name:	Henry Jones
Gender:	Male
Rank:	Pte
Record Type:	Disability
Residence Place:	Newport Mon
Military Service Region:	Wales, Wales
Military Country:	Wales
Service Number:	1/MON/249
Corps, Regiment or Unit:	Defonce Force Monmautr
Service Branch:	Military (Army)
Title:	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:	Pension Record Ledger
Reference Number:	5/MJ/No.9237

Henry JONES, 1/MON/249 From WFA/Fold3: Recorded as Defence Force (Monmouth) = Claimed c.9/1925 his disability pension claim was No Award 30/9/25 and Reject 27/5/26

M

[8055Bell]

Hi M,

PaulC and I have been pondering the Defence Force casualties who died while serving with the Manchester Regiment.  We've found one who is commemorated by CWGC and a batch who aren't.  Terry is going to have a look at these when he's back up to speed after the onslaught of the last few months grave finds.  I have always wondered if these men were fully embodied, rather than reservist.  I certainly feel they should be incuded on the CWGC roll if they meet the criteria, in the same way the Irish Civil War men are included.

Tim

ps I've lost my note as to which man is on the CWGC Roll. We found him through Soldiers Effects.  Hopefully Paul will remember.

Edited 4 January , 2023 by 8055Bell

[PaulC78]

John Lynch is on CWGC, his pension cards say RDC but SER correctly identifies him as Defence Force: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/372516/j-lynch/

Jospeh James Nicholls is also on CWGC, probably a better example as his service papers from 1921 have survived: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/378006/joseph-james-nicholls/

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

John Lynch is on CWGC, his pension cards say RDC but SER correctly identifies him as Defence Force: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/372516/j-lynch/

There are two references to Manchester Regiment at WFA/Fold3 pensions records for him - and yes, they also do refer to RDC

M

Edited 3 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
italicise

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

Jospeh James Nicholls is also on CWGC, probably a better example as his service papers from 1921 have survived: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/378006/joseph-james-nicholls/

MoP records at WFA/Fold3 variously have him as Manchester Regt, Defence Force (Misc), West Riding (Defence Force) and Royal Defence Corps

M

[PaulC78]

There seems to have been a lot of confusion over this, even a century ago. I've found serveral DF men incorrectly referred to as RDC in the pension cards, SER and on CWGC.

[Matlock1418]

WFA/Fold3 pension records have over 1000 'hits' for "Defence Force"

From a quick scan [think I got to a total of 1194 images] - as Defence Force or Royal Defence Force and also commonly, possibly even more usually, in the format Regiment/Corps (Defence Force) or Defence Force (Regiment/Corps).

These seem mostly for disability claims, a few duplicates where widows made a claim and some blanks but overall a tidy number of men in total.

Probably unsurprisingly individuals seemed to have typically had a service number [seemingly for their local DF] in the one to three digit range, occasionally on these cards with related letters as a prefix or suffix.

M

Edited 3 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

On 07/10/2011 at 18:26, RaySearching said:

I came across the folowing headstone with the inscription ( accidentally killed serving in his Majestys defence force June 3rd 1921 )

exactly what was his Majestys Defence Force ? a Branch of the armed forces perhaps

I cannot find his name on Cwgc although his death just falls within the qualifying period for inclusion ( if serving with his majestys Defence force Qualifies)

if he qualifies, and his death occured whilst serving , then he may be a possible non commemorated

ELCOATE wasn't the only one seemingly accidentally killed [shot] whilst serving with the DF in 1921

Here's shortly earlier from 21.4.21 ... L/Cpl John William STEPHENSON, 5/169, (Northumberland Fusiliers) Defence Force

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Can't see him commemorated on CWGC either.

M

[Matlock1418]

I am intrigued by the status of DF casualties in the eyes of CWGC given their eligibility criteria for commemoration and their official war period that ended 31 August 1921

What exactly what was the DF men's official status so far as the nation was concerned? - After all they had generally signed an official 90 Day Emergency Service Attestation Form in April 1921 and were armed. Were they considered by the nation a Commonwealth Armed Force?

I note in Hansard https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1921/apr/14/defence-force, reporting on 21 April 1921 debate on/including reference to the the DF. it is recorded that:

Sir L. WORTHINGTON-EVANS: They are used for precisely the same purpose as any of the military forces of the Crown may be used for.

[Sir Laming WORTHINGTON-EVANS Minister without Portfolio 1920-1921, Secretary of State for War 1921-1922 = at the time of the above statement he was Sec. of State for War - in another debate on 19 April 1921 he had been referred to as such]

???

M

[Matlock1418]

I know this recently rather seems to have turned into pretty much a one member thread but wondering if anyone had found out more / had any further comment to make about the DF and also CWGC's approach for DF members?

My interest has also grown a bit more as just found a recognised ex-soldier, Herbert BAGSHAW, [formerly 13252, 9th Bn Notts & Derby - ex-Gallipoli, Somme and Z Reserve], within a number of men of the 6th Bn Sherwood Forester Defence Force on the 1921 Census [also elsewhere recorded on the Census as 2nd 6th SF (DF)] - not found my chap's wartime service record [seemingly likely burnt and not found amongst the listed released MoD records ??] but seeking more info on him too.

Images thanks to Find My Past

So ... if anyone knows anything specific about BAGSHAW [incl. specifically the stamped number 59 next to his rank - DF no. or Census entry?] and/or 6SFDF more generally then such info would also be very gratefully received please.

M

Edited 9 April , 2023 by Matlock1418
images acknowledgement

[8055Bell]

Hi Matlock,

I wholeheartedly agree with your logic here.  Why not ask CWGC about their policy on Defence Force casualties? 

Tim

[Matlock1418]

On 11/04/2023 at 09:22, 8055Bell said:

Why not ask CWGC about their policy on Defence Force casualties? 

I did ... and after five months and then chasing I got the following reply today:

Many thanks for your email and I sincerely apologise for our delay in responding to your enquiry.
I would like to explain that the Commemorations team are currently consulting internal/external archival documents to determine whether a decision was agreed upon by the IWGC at the time, and that those who re-enlisted for a short period of service from April 1921 would qualify as Commonwealth war casualties.  
I would like to thank you for your continued patience and to assure you that the Commemorations team will contact you in due course.

So we wait ...

M

Edit: My bold

Edited 27 September , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

On 09/04/2023 at 09:38, Matlock1418 said:

So ... if anyone knows anything specific about BAGSHAW [incl. specifically the stamped number 59 next to his rank - DF no. or Census entry?] and/or 6SFDF more generally then such info would also be very gratefully received please.

I must have been a bit sleepy when I posted that question about 59 - I now think it is likely just a sequential number in place off the crossed-out 1-20 in the left-hand-most column. 

Never mind = another opportunity to ask about Pte Herbert BAGSHAW, wartime and DF service [he survived both].

TiA.

M

 

Edited 27 September , 2023 by Matlock1418

[PaulC78]

Terry Denham enquired about the Defence Force late 2019/early 2020, the response he got from CWGC was that they would not be a qualifying unit as they were "not used in any active sense" and were essentially "a type of reserve". That doesn't seem entirely accurate though, some of the DF men who died were clearly on duty at the time. AFAIK there wasn't any historical basis for that decision, so I don't know how binding it is. In theory I expect they should be subject to the same criteria as any other part-time members of the armed forces.

What I can say is that I found a total of 72 Defence Force men who died within the qualifying period, of whom 37 are commemorated by CWGC. Only a couple of them have any explicit reference to the DF though, but others have it written on the GRR forms. One of them was an IFCP case accepted in 2009 (Henry Platt, 223, South Staffs). Several other cases are awaiting adjudication.