curranl Posted 5 October , 2011 Share Posted 5 October , 2011 Hello All, While I'm on a uniform roll...... Can anyone tell me anything about the uniform below?? Thanks in Advance, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 5 October , 2011 Share Posted 5 October , 2011 Royal Engineer Pre WW1? Or Grenadier Guards I's still say pre WW1. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 5 October , 2011 Share Posted 5 October , 2011 There is certainly a grenade as a collar dog but not sure I would go with either of Simons options. It is certainly late 19th century and I would pop for a Fusilier Regiment. Who else, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 October , 2011 Share Posted 5 October , 2011 I think he is probably a sapper of the Royal Engineers in an undress, 5 button 'frock' (looser fitting and of more inferior material than the tunic) and wearing a pill box cap that was replaced by the 'Brodrick' forage cap in 1902, thus dating the photo to approx circa 1899-1901. It is always difficult to spot the difference between an engineer and a gunner (of the RFA/RGA) in a B&W photo, as they both wore very similar uniforms, but one had a scarlet tunic/frock and the other dark blue. In this case the shade of the top half leads me towards the red of the Royal Engineers, but he is wearing a grenade collar badge, which at that time was more often worn by ORs as a collar adornment by the RA, so I am not entirely positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 October , 2011 Share Posted 5 October , 2011 Here is an artilleryman for comparison, but note that both of these latter two photos show a tunic and not a frock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 6 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Hello All, Many thanks for the replies so far. Regards, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 There is certainly a grenade as a collar dog but not sure I would go with either of Simons options. It is certainly late 19th century and I would pop for a Fusilier Regiment. Who else, Rob Fusiliers did not wear the pill box cap Rob. They wore instead the folding Field Service Cap (FSC) until 1902, when it too was replaced with the Brodrick forage cap. Royal Engineer Pre WW1? Or Grenadier Guards I's still say pre WW1. Simon Not Grenadier Guards Simon as they did not wear that type of cuff loop and frock, only the RE and RA did so and they both wore a similar pattern of pill box cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Hello All, Many thanks for the replies so far. Regards, Liam. Any photographers markings on the front or rear would assist Liam? If it is an Irish photographer there were far more RA bases there than RE and a location name would greatly assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 6 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Hi Guys, The man is from Clarecastle in County Clare. I'll check with the owner of the photo if there are any markings. Regards and thanks, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 6 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Hi Guys, The only thing on the back of the photo is "Photo taken by F. Deakin, 121 Snargate St., Dover" That's it I'm afraid. Regards, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Not Grenadier Guards Simon as they did not wear that type of cuff loop and frock, only the RE and RA did so and they both wore a similar pattern of pill box cap. Frogsmile Thank you, always learning. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Fusiliers did not wear the pill box cap Rob. They wore instead the folding Field Service Cap (FSC) until 1902, when it too was replaced with the Brodrick forage cap. Well here's shock for you(as much as it was for me at the time). The Transport Section of the Northumberland Fusiliers, wore both a pill-box cap and "shell jacket" pre-1900 for stable duties etc. Was absolutely stunned when I came across a photo of them in the regimental journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Well here's shock for you(as much as it was for me at the time). The Transport Section of the Northumberland Fusiliers, wore both a pill-box cap and "shell jacket" pre-1900 for stable duties etc. Was absolutely stunned when I came across a photo of them in the regimental journal. Well that's interesting. I guess never say never. Out of interest was it a Volunteer battalion? Rifle Corps did wear the pill box, whilst the rest of the infantry generally wore the FSC, with perhaps the very 'odd' exception, as you have pointed out. However, in the context of this thread and in the interests of not muddying the water for the original poster, would you agree that it is 'uncommon' for fusiliers to wear pill box caps and that the combination with the looped cuff would also tend to rule out infantry, but fit with RE or RA? I enclose a photo of another RA soldier and some Rifles NCOs in pill box caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 KRR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Ref the photograph originally posted and subsequent information supplied. Would a soldier carry a swagger stick while wearing stable dress, effectively a "fatigue" dress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Well that's interesting. I guess never say never. Out of interest was it a Volunteer battalion? Rifle Corps did wear the pill box, whilst the rest of the infantry generally wore the FSC, with perhaps the very 'odd' exception, as you have pointed out. However, in the context of this thread and in the interests of not muddying the water for the original poster, would you agree that it is 'uncommon' for fusiliers to wear pill box caps and that the combination with the looped cuff would also tend to rule out infantry, but fit with RE or RA? Actually they were 'regulars' and not Volunteers, and it is a rarity and don't know if other units followed their example. In this case I suspect he's RE, since the collar appears to be slightly darker in shade. The "trefoil" cuff lace was however as common to the infantry, especially with the Indian pattern scarlet jackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Hi Guys, The only thing on the back of the photo is "Photo taken by F. Deakin, 121 Snargate St., Dover" That's it I'm afraid. Regards, Liam. Excellent Liam, Dover was one of the principal bases for Royal Engineers. There was a base there for Submarine Miners, a highly specialized branch. Although there were also infantry in the garrison there I am now confident from his uniform and location that he is a Royal Engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Ref the photograph originally posted and subsequent information supplied. Would a soldier carry a swagger stick while wearing stable dress, effectively a "fatigue" dress? Going from the white gloves and swagger stick Squirrel, I think he is in walking out dress, but using a frock rather than the more correct tunic. Not the first time a soldier had improvised to overcome and one can only assume his tunic was in the tailors or absent for some other reason. He looks as if he has slept in his trousers and all in all is rather typical of a submarine miner in terms of his turnout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Actually they were 'regulars' and not Volunteers, and it is a rarity and don't know if other units followed their example. In this case I suspect he's RE, since the collar appears to be slightly darker in shade. The "trefoil" cuff lace was however as common to the infantry, especially with the Indian pattern scarlet jackets. Yes that is very interesting and really unusual. Apart from anything else I do not think that infantry other than Rifles were 'authorised' for issues of Pill Box forage caps. Perhaps PVCNs or Lists of Changes hold the answer, but I have never seen any other fusilier regiment wearing pill box caps, apart from mounted infantrymen and I cannot recall if that was in India or South Africa. I am aware that the India Pattern Scarlet Frock bore a cuff trefoil (officer version enclosed), but I did not think that they were used on the Home Service variant during the period in question. Moreover it seems pretty clear that the flat cuff lace is not white and therefore most likely to be the RE blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 RE and RA tunics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Going from the white gloves and swagger stick Squirrel, I think he is in walking out dress, but using a frock rather than the more correct tunic. Not the first time a soldier had improvised to overcome and one can only assume his tunic was in the tailors or absent for some other reason. He looks as if he has slept in his trousers and all in all is rather typical of a submarine miner in terms of his turnout. Thanks Frogsmile - I don't think that a Gunner or Fusilier would get past the gate dressed like that. A Mudlark might though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 7 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Hi Gents, thanks for the help! It looks like our man is a Royal Engineer (albeit a somewhat scruffy one!)circa 1900. Regards and Thanks, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentishwolf Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Scruffy one! .....Now to most if not all other units in the British Army that could be quite insulting. But as sappers we will accept it with a certain amount of pride, our badge of honour (and hard work) if you like. Hi Gents, thanks for the help! It looks like our man is a Royal Engineer (albeit a somewhat scruffy one!)circa 1900. Regards and Thanks, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Scruffy one! .....Now to most if not all other units in the British Army that could be quite insulting. But as sappers we will accept it with a certain amount of pride, our badge of honour (and hard work) if you like. No offence meant and said with real affection. The greatest respect for RE's lies here. Not for nothing are they "first in and last out!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 8 October , 2011 Share Posted 8 October , 2011 No offence meant and said with real affection. The greatest respect for RE's lies here. Not for nothing are they "first in and last out!" Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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