Tunnel Trench

[towisuk]

Tom, no it's the other road, where the blob is, Regards Peter

Ok mate, thanks for the correction, maybe take another look around there next time I'm down that way...........

regards

Tom

[Rob Hill]

Interesting reference to TUNNEL TRENCH in the 7th Buffs War Diary on 27th May 1917:

"23 May 1917

TRENCHES

9.0pm A patrol under 2/Lt HILL set out at 9.0pm and went down ROTTEN ROW to about U.1.b.4.6 where he established a post. Voices were heard where BUSH trench joins ROTTEN ROW. A machine gun was observed to be firing from junction of YORK trench and ROTTEN ROW.

'C' Coy advanced their post from U.31.e.22 to O.31.C.4.0.

11.0pm A patrol under 2/Lt COURTICE, 'D' Company, went down PUG LANE supported by a Lewis Gun Section, towards enemy stop. They observed an enemy party working in front of YORK TRENCH and fired on it, causing it to retire. This patrol, as did 2/Lt HILL's, heard talking at junction of BUSH trench and ROTTEN ROW.

24 May

11.0am At 11.0am a message was sent to 'C' Coy asking for the exact position of 2/Lt HILL's POST in ROTTEN ROW to be ascertained, as the Brigade were not satisfied that the post was as near YORK trench as stated. This was paced out in daylight by 2/Lt HILL and found to be, as stated, at U.1.b.4.6

27 May

The 33rd Division on the Right attacked TUNNEL TRENCH in the afternoon of the 27th, with the object of capturing it as far S at its junction with PLUM TRENCH. This they failed to do for the most part.

The 2/Lt HILL mentioned 4 times was my grandfather.

[gdc]

On 01/12/2011 at 16:40, titi1418 said:

Thanks for welcome. I expect spend a good time here.

Due to my job I don't live at Fontaine for the moment, I go back around one time/month. So, if you need local info, pictures, or if you have question about a particular sector... don't hesitate!

TT

 

To All,

      If this subject is still open to comments I would like to ask if the three blockhouses that you mentioned may be

'mebus Argus ,Neptune and Uranus mentioned in the 90th Siege Artillery/H A G dairies of November 1917

and their approximate location. Also a ' Fontaine church is mentioned is this a church in Fontaine - les- Croisilles

with the artillery located at Henin (Henin -s-Cojeul ?) or Heninel as the range of the guns would sort of tie up

for the barrages.

       Hoping someone could say if I am on the right track

   Regards to all

                       Graham

 

[gdc]

OOPs I stand corrected----- 'mebus Argus ,Neptune and Uranus

Graham

[mebu]

Graham, the mebus positions are the ones indicated on the map by the letters-  except that Uranus is slightly north, off the map.

 

Your village assumptions seem to be correct.

 

Peter

[gdc]

Thanks Very Much Peter

             It would seem that the location of Uranus,Neptune and Argos are well within the range of the 9.2 Howitzers

stationed in Henin or Heninel. For interest my source was 90th Siege Battery (90 H A G) diaries November 1917

         I was quite surprised to find some one who new of these places as they are never really named on the maps

I hope next month to visit these places as my grand father seems to be stationed here around November 1917 as

a signaler,who was gassed and attended Lozinghem Casualty Clearing Station and then to England.

  Thanks once again

            Graham

 

 

[MBrockway]

Another trench map showing the Uranus, Argus and Neptune mebus very clearly (as well as lots of other strongpoints).

It's dated 25 Apr 1918 and is grabbed from the NLS trench map site.

 

BULLECOURT is one square off the SE corner of this extract.

Mark

 

[gdc]

Hi Mark and Peter

          These maps are Brilliant , there seems to be more than I expected available --I have looked at the

modern maps and Google earth and I think I have identified some of the roads marked on these maps

a very sparse area of flatish fields and small roads and tracts.

  I am not familiar with the NLS trench map site though, could you please enlighten me as I am a bit new

to all this.

         Many thanks to you both,

                           Graham

[gdc]

Ah thought--- Library of Scotland--Yessss!!!!

           Graham

[MBrockway]

Yep - National Library of Scotland

 

Check here:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=15&lat=50.2034&lon=2.9177&layers=10146507&right=osm

 

[gdc]

Hi Mark,

           Thanks for the link------- looking at it right now----- (still fighting with how all this works though).

But its great to have you guys around as mentors with all the knowledge you have

Thanks

        Graham

[MBrockway]

Returning to TUNNEL TRENCH, here is an aerial photograph from 06 Apr 1917 showing the northern end to the S of FONTAINE-LES-CROISILLES

 

[Source: McMaster trench map library]

 

I've tried to mark up the approx view on this trench map ...

 

The foreground shows the front trench of the Hindenburg Line, which had become the British front line by the time of my index trench map.  The trench in the background with all the chalk spoil behind it is TUNNEL TRENCH, which was the support trench for the Hindenburg Line.  The spoil probably also contains excavation tailings from the tunnel.

 

The narrow gauge trench railway line so clear on the index map between the two lines can be seen in the right half of the aerial.  Map Ref 51B.U.13.b.7.4 is marked on the aerial at the front line end of the spur where it splits to run behind the line in both directions.  It's slightly out - correct ref should be 51B.U.13.b.7.2.

 

The belts of barbed wire in the defensive zone depicted as red 'X's on the map, show up as dark rectangular blocks on the aerial.  Note the wide gap clearly intended to funnel attackers into the killing zone commanded by the two strongpoints sapped forward out of TUNNEL TRENCH.  The strongpoint to the E (right) of the railway line is the JUNO MEBU.  There's a trench ref of (51B.)U.7.d.8.1 marked on the aerial where the sap between the two strongpoints meets TUNNEL TRENCH.  Again it's slightly out - I make the correct ref to be 51B.U.14.a.0.7.  Undoubtedly that sap leads to an outpost (bombing?) commanding the gap in the wire.

 

Here's a later trench map extract showing the JUNO MEBU and TUNNEL TRENCH more clearly, again it dates after the British had taken the Hindenburg front line.

 

Lastly here's a larger extract to give you the wider geographical context.  You can see I've been dealing with the northern end of TUNNEL TRENCH in U.13.b and U.14.a.

 

 

 

Hope these are of interest.

Mark

 

 

 

[gdc]

Hi Mark,

            Thanks very much for all this, I am amazed at what you have found out about this area.

I am truly fascinated by the maps and references,especially the aerial photo.

      I did not know I was going to find out so much about this location and am looking forward to

visiting the area,though probably not very much if any is showing  above ground now ---it would

seem that the farmers have done a good job---but you can still see some indications from the

modern aerial views of what was there, and the NSL link you sent me along with google earth

images are quite fascinating to compare .

                                                    Regards  Graham

Edited 21 May , 2017 by gdc
reading right

[Fattyowls]

Hi Graham

I too am interested in the Tunnel Trench area and I have visited it to take some photographs which may help illustrate Mark's terrific post. I hope it will supplement what you have found already. The first image is from the track intersection where the Hump feature was looking north with Fontaine on the left, Monchy le Preux on the centre horizon and the area shown in Mark's aerial just to the left of the track down to the village.

 

The second image is from the same spot but turned 90 degrees left, that is east north east towards where the Uranus and Argus positions; Neptune would just be off to the right. I have a view that way but it looks remarkably similar to this one, just without the shadow of the photographer. Hope it is some use, Pete.

 

[MBrockway]

Nice photos Pete!

 

I meant to point out that a close-up of the aerial showing TUNNEL TRENCH under construction clearly matches up with the photo Peter (Pal mebu) included in Post #7 above ...

 

 

 

You can clearly see these windlass-served inclined planes managing the tunnel spoil in the aerial together with the disproportionately large spoil heaps behind the parados.

 

Mark

 

 

[gdc]

Thanks for the Photos I should now be able to see what the artillery were involved in

Around end of October 1917.

 

Thank you all for your assistance

                            Graham

[towisuk]

Nice to see the topic of this area revived and some very interesting info and pictures posted....I actually drove down the track in the photo in post #39 in 2011 shortly after I started the topic.

regards

Tom

[gdc]

Thanks for the Photos I should now be able to see what the artillery were involved in

Around end of October 1917.

 

Thank you all for your assistance

                            Graham

[gdc]

Hi All,

     I can't thank you all enough for sharing your knowledge .I have found out a lot. about

this area from you all and followed up many leads.

     I wonder if Monsieur T T has any stories he could share with us all--that would be great

        Thanking you all,, Graham

[TimQ]

This is all fascinating stuff guys, thanks for putting it online where I could find it.

My great uncle Sapper James Charles Quantrill was killed in the attack on the Tunnel Trench on November 20, 1917, and we're going out next month to mark the 100th anniversary. He's buried at Croisilles Railway Cemetery with many comrades from the Royal Engineers and Irish Regiments he fought alongside.

I attach a picture of him and a couple of group pictures, I guess of his unit and perhaps the infantry units he served with. More info on their identification would be useful.

We're hoping to explore the area around Croisilles in November and will post more pictures here, particularly if we can pinpoint more locations from the war diaries of the regiments involved.

[TimQ]

On 14/10/2011 at 07:55, Colin W Taylor said:

Gents

I've been studying the involvement of various divisions in the fighting before, during and after the 1917 Battle of Arras, involving the Hindenburg Line between Croisilles and Fontaine les Croisilles. I'm hoping to put a book together.

Sassoon's poem 'The Rearguard' describes his floundering along the Hindenburg Support Line Tunnel - the trench above becoming named Tunnel Trench in the area unoccupied by the British. Several other people have described being inside the tunnel - I'll dig out some further accounts.

From what I've read of 1918 in March at least one unit withdrawing from Tunnel Trench set alight the props to deny it to the Germans; in addition during the fighting for it various sections were blown in to stop the Germans moving along it past the barricades in the trenches. Whilst I'd love to get inside and look I know it'll never happen. Plus most of the entrances were booby trapped with explosive charges for the Germans to deny it were the British to capture it - I assume these were removed but one never knows!

Kind Regards

Colin

This looks like a great book Colin and covers the period when my great uncle died in the Croisilles area.

I'll order it ASAP.

Tim

[gdc]

Just seen this post-- I was in the area in June this year and found the museum in Bullecourt

very facinating for 3 Euros , could be worth a detour,I think anyone would find this area fascinating.

[titi1418]

On 04/11/2017 at 17:12, gdc said:

Just seen this post-- I was in the area in June this year and found the museum in Bullecourt

very facinating for 3 Euros , could be worth a detour,I think anyone would find this area fascinating.

 

You're right that a good one. There is also a lot of little private nice collections along this Hindenburg Line aera. I also recommend MuséeLigneHindenburg on facebook.

Regards

TT

[mancpal]

Bullecourt, Breaching  the Hindenburg Line by Paul Kendall makes good reading about this area.

 

Simon

[Blue Dragoon]

Currently researching Capt John Bredel Matthews attd 8 Leics who got his MC in this area in mid 1917.  This is a map from 110 Bde War diary.  I'm clearly going word blind, trying to find Tunnel Trench on here.  Thought it ran through this area?