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SANDY_LEISHMAN

Help Needed Identifying this Sporran Badge

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SANDY_LEISHMAN

Anyone recognise the Badge?

post-36268-0-14463700-1316593902.jpg

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Old Owl

Hi Sandy,

This has a look of The Royal Scots--but I'm not absolutely sure.

Robert

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auchonvillerssomme

Looking at some of the sporran sales sites the thistle seems generic and not necessarily related to the army.

http://www.google.co.uk/#q=sporran+badge+thistle&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=0K55TqTVGs2t8QPchIU-&sqi=2&ved=0CFAQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e3d6955690f5fd0&biw=1067&bih=514

If the Royal Scots did wear it as a sporran badge I wonder why they didn't use the whole of the Order of the Thistle?

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Old Owl

Looking at some of the sporran sales sites the thistle seems generic and not necessarily related to the army.

http://www.google.co...iw=1067&bih=514

If the Royal Scots did wear it as a sporran badge I wonder why they didn't use the whole of the Order of the Thistle?

Yes, I'm sure that you are right, but I cannot find a picture of a Royal Scots sporran and I just thought that this was very similar to the Royal Scots collar badge. I'm certain that a Royal Scots collector will be along soon to confirm or otherwise.

Robert

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Lachlan

This is my Granddad, Pte Peter Montgomery 2/7th Royal Scots. You can see the sporran badge is the same as the regimental cap badge.

PeterMontgomery-2-1.jpg

The sporran in Sandy's request looks like a Camerons' sporran, though I believe it had the Cameron's cap-badge on it. Perhaps Camerons with a modification somewhere along the line ? Or a volunteer sporran ?

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auchonvillerssomme

But how would you distinguish it from the generic civilian sporrans with the same badge?

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SANDY_LEISHMAN

I'm pretty sure now that its the sporan of someone in the Dandy 9th, but it's not been confirmed yet, will update once I get hold of Tam at the Royal Scots Museum

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SANDY_LEISHMAN

Dycer sent me this photo of 4208 Pte.(Boy) G.S.Souness7th Volunteer Battalion Royal Scots taken at camp circa 1907.

the number stamped on the back (appears) to be .... 300(either 0 or 9 is the next digit I think) 464, which is as that would make him an Argylle? I've asked Rod McKenzie up at the Argylls Musuem if he can clarify it for me, and will post here to let anyone following the thread know the outcome.... tks for the help so far chaps

post-36268-0-05201300-1316604510.jpg

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Old Owl

This is most intriguing, at least now we have a picture of a soldier wearing a sporran exactly like the one in question--so one has to assume that this is definitely a military one?

Let's hope that the museum can clarify this.

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SANDY_LEISHMAN

Seems I might have been a bit hasty, the colour of the Sporrans don't match, now think he may have been a Cameron Highlander

post-36268-0-21563700-1316683767.jpg

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Lachlan

I think the 7th Vol Batt RS became the Dandy Ninth in 1908 and Pte Souness is wearing their uniform, kilt and all.

The sporran my Granddad is wearing is of course a pipe-band sporran, hence the 3 tails and wide cantle.

The Camerons' sporran badge is the QOCH style regimental badge with St Andrew, wreath of thistles and motto "CAMERON".

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Blackblue

Is there something in the leaves of the thistle differing? The one on the physical sporran is not as long and curled as those in the photos.

Rgds

Tim D

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dycer

I think the 7th Vol Batt RS became the Dandy Ninth in 1908 and Pte Souness is wearing their uniform, kilt and all.

Lachlan,

Pte.Souness became a member of the 8th Royal Scots ,in 1908, and was renumbered 20.He was killed in action, on 22 March 1918,whilst serving with that Battalion.

George

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Old Owl

The main difference between George's photo and the original sporran is the colour of the tails? black/white and also their backgound. Also the sporran in George's photo appears to have a brass edging along the top edge? Sorry but I don't know all the technical terms for tha various components of a sporran--we don't see many in North Yorkshire!!

But we definitely know that George's relative is a Royal Scot--so surely the badge must relate to them?

Robert

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dycer

Robert,

I'm not so sure that the "Thistle Emblem and colour" immediately decrees a Royal Scots connection.

I "offered" the 1907? photo, to Sandy, as it was immediately assumed,by subsequent "serious" thread posters, that Sandy's "sporran" was a Royal Scots one.

How, my Relative(Uncle) had a photo taken, at a Royal Scots pre-WW1 Camp,wearing a kilt and sporran,is now open, to suggestion, because I have no idea :D

Sandy,quite reasonably, rightly or wrongly,assumes that "his" sporran belongs to the "WW1 era" and to a kilted Regiment and was led to a Royal Scots connection, by "serious" thread posters.

Sandy now realises that "his" sporran" has no Royal Scots connection but then again it may have. :lol:

"My" photo, whenever and however taken and in what circumstances,merely identifies a type of sporran worn, by a non professional "Royal Scot" in the early 1900's.

But you are now entering "deeper waters".

Pte.Souness,born 1894, "enlisted" in a Royal Scots Volunteer or TF Battalion,in the 1907/08 period,per the photograph,aged 13 or 14 and was killed, in 1918,at the age of 24 ,per his CWGC entry, as supplied by his Family.

Whether the photo is,of him,as a "boy soldier" i.e. a bandsman, I do not know, because his TF Army profession was as a "machine gunner" i.e.Maxim and Lewis Guns but it has been suggested to me "it was his first Camp photograph and intended for his Mum and Sisters"(How would I ever find the photograph?.I never did,it was just "kept")so that I can, after 100 years merely "assist" the Forum and know ,at Camp,"he was keeping well"?

George

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Lachlan

My Granddad Montgomery, 2/7th RS, wearing another sporran at Widford Camp, Chelmsford 1916. He also had a plain leather sporran, worn in another photo. 3 sporrans ? Very sartorial indeed !

Pte Souness is interesting as all ranks of the 8th RS didn't wear the kilt, but he could have been training as a piper, or perhaps borrowed it for the photo.

True enough 7th VB RS would have become the 8th RS TF, as the 6th VB RS did become the 7th RS TF.

PMontomery4sm.jpg

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Lachlan

I can't help feeling that pre-war some TF units held onto items of uniform, eg sporrans, used by them when they were pre 1908 VB's. This might especially have been the case if the battalion funds or officers' pockets had paid for such items. So it may well be that old patterns of sporran survived among the official issue based on the parent regiment.

As for war-time raised TF units, the original 1/- battalions would probably have retained most of the sporrans they had, while the 2/- and 3/- battalions might have been partly issued from regimental sources or by their own battalion's enterprise. Also, studio portraits may employ trompe d'oeil to give the impression of a fully-kitted out soldier. It was not unknown for soldiers to bring along a specimen item or two to a studio which each soldier took turns to wear for "their photo". Also, as we know, studios often had props which could be used, especially if in a certain regimental area.

You saw my Granddad 2/7th RS in a studio pic above - complete with dirk and rather grand sporran. Using logic here, would all pipers of a wartime-raised reserve unit of a TF battalion be issued with expensive dress dirks and grand sporrans ? I don't know but would think not. Here's another piper (a pipe-corporal) of the 2/7th in his studio pic:-

Piper2-7RS1sm.jpg

Not only could it be the same style of dirk and sporran, they could actually be the same ones, passed around in the studio.

Here is a studio pic of my Granddad 2/7th RS in a plain sporran - which would have been isuued to him I believe:-

PMontomery1sm-1.jpg

Also notice in these pics the sartorial additional of kilt-pins, in the last photo a plain blanket pin and the earlier ones fancy ones (eg game bird claw with a cairngrom stone or silver top etc) - definitely non-issue !

However, if you look at my Granddad's 1916 photo, his 2 tassel sporran looks plainer than the 3-tassel studio one. This to me looks more like the one the 2/7th pipers were issued with, probably from battalion (or officer) funds. Here's another couple of pipers at Chelmsford:-

Piper2-7RS9sm.jpg

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Lachlan

Piper2-7RS10sm.jpg

Thinking about the OP's pictured sporran, it's possible it's a VB design which were more individually styled than during the TF period, after which they tended (mostly) to follow the regiment's style. However, I think pipers had more leeway and the band was I believe part-paid for by government and partly by private or battalion funding and especially in wartime, obtained what they could to look their best.

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Httc
On 26/09/2011 at 04:06, Lachlan said:

My Granddad Montgomery, 2/7th RS, wearing another sporran at Widford Camp, Chelmsford 1916. He also had a plain leather sporran, worn in another photo. 3 sporrans ? Very sartorial indeed !

Pte Souness is interesting as all ranks of the 8th RS didn't wear the kilt, but he could have been training as a piper, or perhaps borrowed it for the photo.

True enough 7th VB RS would have become the 8th RS TF, as the 6th VB RS did become the 7th RS TF.

PMontomery4sm.jpg

Hello Lachlan, I know this is an old post but are you by any chance still receiving email notifications? 

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Ron Abbott

The pipers of all battalions of the Royal Scots wore kilts/sporrans but the 9th was the only battalion in which the officers and rank and file also wore kilts and sporrans.  

 

The sporran at the start of this thread does look similar to those of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders as well as that of the pipers of one of the Territorial battalions of the Royal Scots prior to WW1. 

 

I am fairly certain that it was either the pipers of the 6th VB or 7th VB Royal Scots that wore them (specifically black with two white tassles and a cantle with thistle).,,,,but only in the very late 1800s/early 1900s prior to becoming the 8th battalion.   

 

However, over the years sporran patterns and cantles changed.  Slight differences and even major ones can be seen! 

That cantle you picture is also very generic, typical of ones used by civilian pipe bands.  

 

 

 

    

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Httc
19 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

The pipers of all battalions of the Royal Scots wore kilts/sporrans but the 9th was the only battalion in which the officers and rank and file also wore kilts and sporrans.  

 

The sporran at the start of this thread does look similar to those of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders as well as that of the pipers of one of the Territorial battalions of the Royal Scots prior to WW1. 

 

I am fairly certain that it was either the pipers of the 6th VB or 7th VB Royal Scots that wore them (specifically black with two white tassles and a cantle with thistle).,,,,but only in the very late 1800s/early 1900s prior to becoming the 8th battalion.   

 

However, over the years sporran patterns and cantles changed.  Slight differences and even major ones can be seen! 

That cantle you picture is also very generic, typical of ones used by civilian pipe bands.  

 

 

 

    

Hi Rob,

 

thanks for your reply but I’m not looking for information on the first sporran, rather the sporran Lachlan posted.

 

Cheers

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Ron Abbott
14 minutes ago, Httc said:

Hi Rob,

 

thanks for your reply but I’m not looking for information on the first sporran, rather the sporran Lachlan posted.

 

Cheers

 

which one?

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Httc

The pipers at Chelmsford.

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Ron Abbott

I presume you are aware that the 2/7th, 2/8th and more importantly when it comes to wearing kilts, the 2/9th were also at Chelmsford in 1916?

Unfortunately, I can't see the photos clearly.

 

Leather sporrans were issued to the Dandy Ninth.

 

In the photos, the men are certainly wearing the uniform of pipers; possibly in the Royal Scots and they are not wearing the furniture on their belts associated with the 'Regular' battalions of the Royal Scots so I wouldn't doubt that they are Territorials, but the photos are just not clear enough to make out the finer details.     

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Michelle Young

Lachlan hasn’t visited the forum since 2014. You can try sending a private message to them. 
Michelle 

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