Hunter-Weston's badge of rank

[punjab612]

Any estimates how much this may go for? No bids yet.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Badge-rank-lt-general-aylmer-hunter-weston-ww1-/160644056993?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D2432284281065466906

I'm not connected in any way with this sale

Peter

[wainfleet]

Just impossible to predict, as it's a real one-off. Hammer price depends entirely on the right persons spotting it. My shot in the dark would be around £150-200, but if two HW collectors (assuming such people exist) got into a fight, it might even go as high as £500-600.

I'm now watching it with some interest!

Add: I'm also not in any way connected with the sale.

[PhilB]

Quite happy with the provenance? Custom made box but that doesn`t prove it`s H-W`s badge?

[wainfleet]

Quite happy with the provenance? Custom made box but that doesn`t prove it`s H-W`s badge?

That's true, but the box is clearly of some age and the badge seems right for it. One wonders why it was brooched, but that's clearly been done professionally and shows that someone regarded it as a worthy keepsake, which would fit well with a custom-made box. If you accept that thinking, it would be quite a coincidence for the seller to have happened across these items separately and put them together. So I tend to believe the story, but that's just an opinion and as you say, there's no proof. You pays your money...

[michaeldr]

An interesting piece which I hope finds a good home. I believe that H-W became a Lt-Gen. while on Gallipoli, with the formation of VIII Corps which the WO sanctioned on 24th May 1915.

On the peninsula he was infamous for his remarks made to:

General Paris (GOC, RND) - "Casualties? What do I care for casualties?"

Maj-General Granville Egerton (re the 156th Brigade)- "delighted to hear that the pups have been so well blooded."

And in a General Order just after the initial landings – "Every man will die at his post rather than retire."

It may well be that he encouraged a similar attitude in his staff. He was entertaining a French general who was passing compliments around regarding H-W's table. H-W then asked his ADC from where he had obtained the ice: "From a hospital ship, Sir."

Ironically he was himself evacuated from the front, sick with something or other not too serious. He later went to the WF, but I will rely on others to comment on his activities there

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

It's interesting that the seller's Gallipoli Star (sic) has so far attracted higher bids

[David Filsell]

Whatever Huntyer Bunter's competence he was no shirker. He was certainly put out of action by something that was pretty unpleasant at Gallipoli.

[horatio2]

Whatever Huntyer Bunter's competence he was no shirker. He was certainly put out of action by something that was pretty unpleasant at Gallipoli.

Sun-stroke according to the OH. At least he got a good tan out of it.

[michaeldr]

Lots of old generals need looking after once they lose the attentions of a regular full-time batman; one of our local heroes turned up at a very important funeral not quite looking his best, so, when the next one came along, the powers-that-be sent around "several guardsmen….to valet him and clean up the white mildew and snuff from the cloth of his uniform and the green mould from his buttons."

Is this what has happened here to H-W, who seems to have his 'sword and scabbard'* upside-down?

[please excuse the ignorance if I have got the name of this insignia wrong]

[nigelcave]

Hmmmm. The family still has his papers etc etc. I wonder?

[Ian Riley]

This may not be quite so 'one-off'' as Wainfleet (#2) suggests but only on a technicality. I think that this is the right epaulette baton and scimitar (with the general officer's scimitar pointing forward) There might be an asymetric left epaulette version (to achieve the forward-pointing scimitar) about somewhere. That is my recollection of the rank badge; I seem to recall a newly promoted GOC North-West District causing hilarity with a reversed set. I must check my own uniforms (just joking)

The case certainly seems to be 'the business' in red morocco, well-spaced and very neat gold blocking (who today would add 'MP'?) and slightly faded silk (so it appears) although I could not pick out the jeweller's name. The lettering looks right and I think one would have to spend quite a lot to get the thing manufactured on the off-chance of getting a good price. It looks like an artifact in itself.

I wonder if there is a museum somewhere that thinks that this is still in its collection or a family collection from which it has been removed.

Ian

[PhilB]

I`ve tried googling HW but can find no mention of his schooling or anything before being commissioned into the RE. What`s his background? His "blooding of pups" comment would indicate a taste for foxhunting.

[Old Owl]

I`ve tried googling HW but can find no mention of his schooling or anything before being commissioned into the RE. What`s his background? His "blooding of pups" comment would indicate a taste for foxhunting.

Hi Phil,

He was educated at Wellington College and the RMA Woolwich. Son of Lt Col Gould Hunter-Weston and Jane, daughter and heiress of Robert Hunter of Hunterston.

Robert

[michaeldr]

who today would add 'MP'?

Ian

Ian,

a very good question.

Time was when there was a different sort of member

There used to be a formality of address in the Commons (I don't know to what extent it still holds good):

a civilian ['vanilla'] MP was 'The Honourable member for..'

a MP who was also a KC/QC, was addressed as "The Honourable and Learned member for..."

while an MP who had previously held the King's/Queen's Commission was 'The Honourable and Gallant member for...'

I see that 'they' are talking about employing ex-soldiers as teachers: perhaps if there were more ex-forces types sitting at Westminster, then the UK would not break that basic and hard learnt rule - 'which country do you not invade – answer, Afghanistan"'

My apologies to the Admin team if this oversteps the mark

Michael

[michaeldr]

I wonder if there is a museum somewhere that thinks that this is still in its collection or a family collection from which it has been removed.

Years ago, some of my own family were 'in service' and it is surprising the amount of stuff which is given away when a new generation takes over 'the big house'. There must also, inevitably, be the suspicion that a certain number of small "objets d′art" go missing over the years.

[michaeldr]

Winning bid ₤132.00 – so well done Wainfleet; you were very close

... ... ... ... ... ...

Ian,

H-W's badge as seen in the 1920's photograph cannot be correct surely?

Never mind whether or not the scimitar is pointing forward; if it pointing down (and not up) then that is a sign of submission, rather like lowering the flag, etc.

[Ian Riley]

Ian,

H-W's badge as seen in the 1920's photograph cannot be correct surely?

Never mind whether or not the scimitar is pointing forward; if it pointing down (and not up) then that is a sign of submission, rather like lowering the flag, etc.

You are correct in that it is not correct. I think that it is the 'right hand' badge worn upside down on his left shoulder but I have had to draw myself a diagram to be sure and am sitting in front of the PC looking halfway like a brigadier-general with a post-it note on my right shoulder. My spatial reasoning is not what it was (but I can still write the transformation matrix to achieve the switch)

Ian

Edited 4 September , 2011 by Ian Riley

[wainfleet]

Winning bid ₤132.00 – so well done Wainfleet; you were very close

Thanks, Michael. I didn't bid, but I thought it was a nice thing in its way, as I imagine did the others who took the time to comment here. HW was one of the characters of the War, and having been worn during hostilities, I thought the badge was more of a personal thing than, say, a medal. If money and space were limitless I'd probably have had a go for it.

Whoever won this will, I have no doubt, value it in the way I would as a personal link to one of the larger-than-life protagonists of the war.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Whoever won this will, I have no doubt, value it in the way I would as a personal link to one of the larger-than-life protagonists of the war.

Indeed - I stuck a bid on it just before heading abroad - Gallipoli, appropriately enough - at the start of the month, and turned out to have won it. I can say that examination of the piece confirms it in my opinion to be all that it purports to be. Clearly the crown and crossed sword and baton have had their fixing lugs removed and smoothed off, then gold plated and fused together with a gold bar, with a gold pin and catch added. The inscribed box bears the logo of top jeweller Edward Tessier of New Bond Street, and the work would surely have been expensive to have done. The piece strikes me as having been put together from Hunter Weston's insignia to create something in the nature of a sweetheart brooch - not sure about H-W's love life, but perhaps commissioned by the man himself for his wife or a mistress..... The top half of the maroon fabric lining to the crown has disintegrated, but otherwise the insignia and box are in very good condition.

George

[Sepoy]

Well done George on acquiring H-W's boxed rank insignia it is certainly an interesting piece.

I am, however, quite interested to note that the photo of H-W, posted above by Michael, clearly shows him wearing a 29th Divisional Gallantry Badge above his medal group. Does anyone know what was the Divisional criteria for the award of these badges?

Sepoy

[pioneecorps]

Aylmer Hunter-Weston

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston23 September 1864 – 18 March 1940 (age 75)

Lt. Gen. Sir Aylmer Hunter-WestonAllegiance United KingdomService/branch British ArmyRankLieutenant-GeneralCommands held11th Infantry Brigade

British 29th Division

British VIII CorpsBattles/warsSecond Boer War

World War IAwardsKnight Commander of the Order of the Bath

Distinguished Service Order

Distinguished Service Order

Venerable Order of Saint JohnLieutenant-General Sir Aylmer Gould Hunter-Weston KCB DSO GStJ (23 September 1864 – 18 March 1940) was a British Army general who served in World War I at Gallipoli and the Somme Offensive. He was also a Member of Parliament.

Nicknamed "Hunter-Bunter", Hunter-Weston has been seen as a classic example of the stereotyped British "donkey" general — he was described by his contemporary superior Sir Douglas Haig as a "rank amateur", and has been referred to by one modern writer as "one of the Great War's spectacular incompetents".^[1] However, another historian writes that although his poor performance at the battles of Krithia earned his reputation "as one of the most brutal and incompetent commanders of the First World War" ^[2] "in his later battles he seemed to hit upon a formula for success ...(but) these small achievements were largely forgotten".^[3] Another writer claims that Hunter-Weston's performance at Gallipoli was "competent" but that he is unfairly vilified for his premature blowing of the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt on 1 July 1916.^[4]

Contents

[hide]

• 1 Early career
• 2 Dardanelles campaign
• 3 Return to Western Front
• 4 Post military
• 5 See also
• 6 References
• 7 External links

[edit] Early career

Commissioned into the Royal Engineers in 1884 he served on the Indian North West Frontier and took part in the Miranzai Expedition of 1891 and was wounded during the Waziristan Expedition of 1894-95. During this time he was promoted to brevet major. He was on General Herbert Kitchener's staff in 1896. He later took part in the Second Boer War in South Africa between 1899 and 1902 as a staff officer then as commander of the Mounted Engineers; he was described as having "reckless courage combined with technical skill and great coolness in emergency".^[5]

He was General Sir John French's chief staff officer in the Eastern Command from 1904 to 1908, after which he performed the same role in the Scottish Command until 1911. He married Grace Strang-Steel in 1905. In 1911, he became the Assistant Director of military training; in the same year, he succeeded his mother as the 27th Laird of Hunterston and was made a member of the Order of the Bath.^[6]

At the outbreak of the war in 1914, he was a brigadier general in command of the 11th Infantry Brigade based at Colchester, and he commanded this unit as part of 4th Division on the Western Front, including at the battles of Le Cateau and the Aisne, where he supervised his command from a motorbike (at a time when senior generals used cars and most other officers used horses). He "often appeared in the most surprising places" and his handling of the brigade was "skilful".^[7]

[edit] Dardanelles campaign

When the Battle of Gallipoli commenced in March 1915, Hunter-Weston was promoted to the command of the British 29th Division, which was to make the landing at Cape Helles near the entrance to the Dardanelles.

When asked for his advice before the landings, Hunter-Weston cautioned General Hamilton that the Turks had had ample time to turn the peninsula into "an entrenched camp", that Helles was less vulnerable to Turkish attack than Suvla Bay but conversely offered little room for maneouvre and given Britain's lack of High Explosive shells needed to cover attacks risked an Allied bridgehead becoming "a second Crimea" which would damage Britain's standing with then-neutral Greece and Romania.^[8]

On the day of the Helles landings Hunter-Weston "remained anchored off W beach.. He was out of contact with S and Y, neglected X and seemed determined to avoid any knowledge of V... (he) took no steps to gather information for himself. His one positive move (to shift troops from V to W beach) had nothing to do with the situation at V and only succeeded because the Turkish defence was stretched too thinly." ^[9]

Hunter-Weston was referred to as "The Butcher of Helles". Progress up from the bridgehead at Helles was severely hampered by lack of artillery: at the First Battle of Krithia (28 April 1915) only 18 guns were available - a comparable division-sized assault on the Western Front at the time might have had 200 - and there was a shortage of mules to pull them forward, and nobody was sure where the Turkish front line actually was.^[10] On 2 May, seeking to exploit the repulse of a Turkish attack the previous night, he launched an attack across the line, despite his troops being tired and short of ammunition - the 86th Brigade, too tired even to attack, stayed completely stationary - "no ground was gained by this lamentable episode".^[11] By this time 29th Division had suffered 4,500 casualties, leaving 6,000 effectives, although the French attacking on the right flank had suffered in similar proportion.^[12]

At the Second Battle of Krithia, 105 guns were now available, of which probably 75 were used, but this was still far fewer than would have been used on the Western Front, and there was still a lack of HE shells (many guns were 18-pounders firing only shrapnel), mules and knowledge of the Turkish positions, whilst Hunter-Weston's plans were excessively detailed and complex, full of map references and complex wheeling maneouvres.^[13] When his plan of attack failed on the first day, he proceeded to repeat the plan on the second and third days.

As the campaign proceeded and more reinforcements were dispatched to Helles, Hunter-Weston's responsibilities grew until on 24 May he was promoted to lieutenant general and given command of the British VIII Corps.

At the Third Battle of Krithia, Hunter-Weston planned with more caution and realism, gaining better intelligence of Turkish positions (including aerial photograpy), ordering night digging to get the start-off point within 250 yards of the Turkish positions (it had been 1,800 yards the previous time) and ordering a lull in the bombardment in the hope that the Turkish guns might give away their positions by retaliating, thus enabling counter-battery fire.^[14] However, although a breakthrough towards Krithia was almost attained by the British infantry in the centre - where the artillery fire had been concentrated - he was worried about an advance in the centre being trapped a salient and so committed his reserves to the unsuccessful attacks by the Indians on the left flank and the Royal Naval Division on the right. This error of reinforcing failure rather than success made the battle "not one of (his) finer moments".^[15]

However "there is strong evidence that (Hunter-Weston) took to heart the lessons" that concentrated High Explosive bombardment by heavy howitzers was needed for success, and held a series of meetings with the French General Gouraud at which they agreed to cooperate with their artillery and adopt this strategy in future. Progress was made in some attacks in late June and early July, with one French attack using a density of shelling up to 20 times that of the early attacks. In some cases these inflicted greater casualties on the Turkish defenders than were taken by the attackers, as lack of space, reserves and guns did not allow the Turks to adopt the defensive tactics used by the Germans later in the war: holding the front line thinly, counterattack and artillery duels with Allied batteries. Even in this period, attacks did not always turn out as hoped: during the Battle of Gully Ravine in late June 1915 he attacked with the inexperienced Scottish 52nd (Lowland) Division - the attack succeeded on the left, where artillery fire was concentrated (as the Indians had been thrown back there earlier in June), but the attack was over too wide a distance, and half the 156th Brigade, attacking on the right with insufficient artillery support, became casualties, of which over a third were killed (this was the attack of which Hunter-Weston claimed he was "blooding the pups").^[16]

However, having been discovered by the Allies, these "bite and hold" tactics were then abandoned and their discovery in Gallipoli largely forgotten by historians. This may be because Hunter-Weston and Gouraud were both soon invalided out of the peninsula, or because the Allies had never intended Gallipoli to be about trench warfare and so were not interested in learning tactical land warfare lessons from it, or simply because the development of artillery tactics throughout the war was not a clear-cut process, as is shown by the fact that similar tactics almost worked at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915, but were then not used for over a year afterwards.^[17] When political leaders in London agreed to commit a further five divisions to Gallipoli in July, they decided that further attacks from the Helles bridgehead were too slow and costly, and that a fresh landing at Suvla Bay offered a better chance of swift victory.^[18]

Gordon Corrigan claims - without giving further detail - that his command of the division was "one of the more competent aspects" handling of the Helles landings and that "his handling of the division, once ashore, was thoroughly competent" ^[19] but this appears to be a minority view.

Hunter-Weston was invalided from Gallipoli in July and returned to England. In his Gallipoli (2001) Les Carlyon wrote: " What was wrong with (Hunter-Weston) has never become clear. The explanations run from sunstroke and exhaustion to enteric fever and dysentery to a collapse and a breakdown. Hamilton ... saw him 'staggering' off to a hospital ship.”

[edit] Return to Western Front

Hunter-Weston returned to command the VIII Corps when it was re-established in France in 1916. At the launch of the Somme Offensive on 1 July 1916 it was Hunter-Weston's divisions, attacking in the northern sector between the Ancre and the Serre, that suffered the worst casualties and failed to capture any of their objectives. Artillery fire was weaker here, and the Germans had the advantage of height, whereas in the southern sector the opposite was true,^[20] but the decision had been made by senior generals (Haig and Rawlinson) to launch the attack over a wide front.

At the Battle of the Somme on 1 July 1916, the plan was to explode 19 mines dug by Royal Engineer tunnelling companies to weaken enemy defences. The northernmost mine of 40,000 pounds (18,000 kg) of explosives was under the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt, a front-line fortification west of the village of Beaumont Hamel on the Hunter-Weston's sector. He wished to detonate the mine four hours early, but this was vetoed by the Inspector of Mines at BEF GHQ, who pointed out that the British had a poor record of seizing craters before the Germans got there. As a compromise Hunter-Weston was allowed to detonate at 07:20.^[21] This led to the successful filming of the explosion by British cinematographer Geoffrey Malins, who was filming the 29th Division's attack. The other mines were detonated at 7:28 am, two minutes before Zero hour when the infantry advance would begin. In many cases, including Hawthorne Ridge, the Germans were able to seize the craters before the British troops crossed No Man's Land.

In an October 1916 by-election, he was elected to the House of Commons as the Unionist member for North Ayrshire. Hunter-Weston, who was the first Member of Parliament to simultaneously command an Army Corps on the field, continued to command VIII Corps but was not involved in any further major offensive.

[edit] Post military

Hunter-Weston continued in politics after the war, being elected again for Bute and Northern Ayrshire in 1918. He resigned from the Army in 1919.

He retired from Parliament in 1935, and died in 1940 following a fall from a turret at his ancestral home in Hunterston.

[michaeldr]

Sepoy,

re your - I am, however, quite interested to note that the photo of H-W, posted above by Michael, clearly shows him wearing a 29th Divisional Gallantry Badge above his medal group. Does anyone know what was the Divisional criteria for the award of these badges?

Is this badge the same as the "Divisional emblem of honour"?

This from the Explanatory Notes in the '29th Divisional Artillery War Record & Honours Book'

quote: "Divisional Cards of Honour" were introduced by by Major General Sir Beauvoir de Lisle, commanding the Division, about July 1917 when a Divisional Honours Book was instituted. Thenceforward, anyone fortunate enough to have his name recorded in this book was granted a "Card of Honour", a parchment certificate of which a replica is given in the frontispiece, and was also entitled to wear the Divisional emblem of honour on the red triangle on the right shoulder. The fact of being mentioned in despatches, or receiving an "immediate" or other award, entitled the recipient to a "Card of Honour". In this work mention of these cards is made only in cases where the individual received no other award for that particular action.

Edited 29 September , 2011 by michaeldr

[PhilB]

"Divisional Cards of Honour" were introduced by by Major General Sir Beauvoir de Lisle, commanding the Division, about July 1917 when a Divisional Honours Book was instituted.

One wonders how H-W can have qualified for it then?

[Sepoy]

Michael thank you for your response pointing out the background of the badge. It appears that H-W was wearing his badge incorrectly on his left breast, above his medals, rather than on his right arm, as well as wearing his rank insignia incorrectly!

An example of the Badge was posted by Forum Member Mike_h under the topic title "29th Division Badge of Honour for gallantry" back in March under Insignia (Incl. Unit Patches, Wound Stripes & Chevrons).

I must dig out my copy of the '29th Divisional Artillery War Record & Honours Book' and have a good read. It is ashame that the Divisional Honour book has not survived as a whole.

Sepoy

[michaeldr]

One wonders how H-W can have qualified for it then?

That's a good question Phil

He may well have been given one as a courtesy to the division's old commander; this may also explain his wearing it incorrectly.

edit to add a link to the thread/photograph mentioned by Sepoy

see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=160706&st

regards

Michael

Edited 29 September , 2011 by michaeldr