Help to identify correct medals

[lwftm]

Hi there,

Hoping someone might be able to help answer a few questions re my grandfather's medals - William Stanley WAGSTAFF, Gunner, 82911, RGA.

We have his original bar & most ribbons (Victory ribbon missing) but not the medals (possibly he sold them at some point?). I wish to purchase some good quality replica medals as a gift for my Dad and want to make sure I get the correct ones.

His MIC shows he received the British and Victory Medals. His file shows the British Medal but no other references.

The attached certificate re his demobilization shows he received the Military Medal but it also mentions something else which is hard to read - possibly `S…ean Cross' – can anyone help read this or know what it might be? Could it be to do with the Military medal? Sorry about the quality of the attachment I had to reduce it a lot to get below the kb limit.

Also he has a ribbon for either the 1914 Star or 1914-1915 Star but there is no mention in his file or MIC. How would I find out which one he received? From what I've googled so far I am confused why he has either as he didn't enlist until 13 May 1916 and it seems as though these medals are only for those who served during either 1914 or 1914-1915. Is there another reason he would have received one of these medals?

He only served in Salonika as far as I know with the 43rd, then 138th and eventually 132nd Siege Battery.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

I will attach picture of his bar & ribbons in a seperate reply due to kb limit.

Cheers Leanne

here is the picture of his bar and ribbons

[aglastonbury]

Leanne,

It is possible that he was a pre-war territorial soldier. Their contract was for 4 years at a time & he would have been released at the end of it. I recall from previous threads this has been mentioned. Some TF solders re-engaged their TF contract, some left the forces & some left & joined the full time army then going to completely different regiments. I'm sure someone else can clarify if the individual would then get separate records. This could explain the 14/14-15 star.

As for replacement, if you do a google search for 'replacement medals' you will find quite a few suppliers. Because you said you want good quality ones, make sure it's replacements not copies or reproductions. There are also supplier that will engrave your grandfathers details as replacements.

All the best in finding what your after,

Alex

[John Morcombe]

I've had a good look through his service papers & searched the medal cards & can find no trace of a Military Medal being awarded. His medal card shows entitlement to the British War & Victory Medals only. As he only enlisted in 1916, he cannot be entitled to the 1914-15 Star, so it looks like the Ribbons for the MM & Star belonged to another man. As for the notes on his discharge certificate, they are written in pen & appear to have been added at a later date.

[headgardener]

The medal bar (which is upside down in your photo) shows - reading from left to right - the Victory medal, British War Medal, the ribbon for the 1914 or 1915 star, and the MM.

The reference to the 'Cross' of some kind could be one of the Serbian medals that were awarded to members of the British forces. It would make sense that it would be linked to whatever action led to him being awarded the MM, although there's no way of proving this without something like a newspaper cutting.

Alex's suggestion is a good one regarding how he comes to have a ribbon for the 14 or 15 star. He may have served abroad in 1914 or 1915, and been discharged, or his period of service came to an end and he re-enlisted or more likely was conscripted in 1916. Alternatively he may have served with the Navy or withe a civilian organization.

Either way, there would be a record of his medal being issued. Sometimes army medals could be duplicated or the issue split between 2 medal index cards. I had a quick look through the MIC's on the National Archives site but can't see any likely candidates (there are no 'W.S.' or 'William S.' Wagstaff's listed, apart from your man). Maybe someone here with Ancestry could have a closer look at the cards themselves. Also check for naval service on the NA site (check RN, RNR and RNVR).

Alternatively, he may have received a ribbon for the star and mounted it, or the person mounting his medal bar may have mistakenly mounted a ribbon for onr of the stars. It wouldn't be exceptional....

[headgardener]

I've had a good look through his service papers & searched the medal cards & can find no trace of a Military Medal being awarded. His medal card shows entitlement to the British War & Victory Medals only. As he only enlisted in 1916, he cannot be entitled to the 1914-15 Star, so it looks like the Ribbons for the MM & Star belonged to another man. As for the notes on his discharge certificate, they are written in pen & appear to have been added at a later date.

John, MIC's generally don't note the award of the MM; the only reliable source is the London Gazette but the search engine is notoriously unreliable. There was a series of special MIC's specifically for the MM, but they aren't available through Ancestry.

Having said that, I had a quick look at the NA index which does list them, and there isn't an MM card for anyone with this service number.

Leanne,

Any chance of a close up of the MM reference and the reference to the 'Cross' on the certificate?

[headgardener]

Forgot to mention that his MM would have to relate to his RGA service because the medal itself wasn't issued before April 1916.

You could also try looking for other army service in the AIF, perhaps?

[lwftm]

Wow thanks for all the great responses....there is a lot to process and I am very new at this so will work my way through - apologies for being a bit slow

Leanne,

It is possible that he was a pre-war territorial soldier. Their contract was for 4 years at a time & he would have been released at the end of it. I recall from previous threads this has been mentioned. Some TF solders re-engaged their TF contract, some left the forces & some left & joined the full time army then going to completely different regiments. I'm sure someone else can clarify if the individual would then get separate records. This could explain the 14/14-15 star.

Were there age limits with being a territorial soldier? My grandad was born 17 Oct 1899 according to his military file he was 18yrs & 7mths when he enlisted although I think it was actually 16yrs 7mths if I've got my maths right? Would it be likely that he would have been TF? He showed his occupation as Engineer though of what we don't know.

There is no family knowledge of him ever serving anywhere else (Dad only ever heard stories about him being in Greece) or with the Navy or AIF, but who knows.....

Headgardener, I will see what I can do to get a closer look at the MM and Cross entry for you .....if you have any suggestions that would be appreciated too,

Cheers

Leanne

[aglastonbury]

As you mention his age, is it possible he joined up under age using a someone else's birth certificate?

It did come up 2 or 3 months back on the forum about under age soldiers been found out & discharged, asking if they would have got the medals. The consensus been they qualified for them, they got them.

So, does anyone think it's possible he joined up at 14 using another name, was found out & discharged only to re-enlist later and looking older?

[lwftm]

Hi, not sure if this will post with a closer view or not. It's the best I can do at the moment because of the 100kb limit. The original photo is nearly 3mb in size so resizing it is drastically reducing its quality. Let me know if this is any better.

It looks as though whoever wrote the medal notes started in black ink and then changed to blue.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Hi, not sure if this will post with a closer view or not. It's the best I can do at the moment because of the 100kb limit. The original photo is nearly 3mb in size so resizing it is drastically reducing its quality. Let me know if this is any better.

It looks as though whoever wrote the medal notes started in black ink and then changed to blue.

I understand from the flyer being put out by Howard Williamson that his new book will show the significance of blue ink on the MICs.

[lwftm]

I've had a good look through his service papers & searched the medal cards & can find no trace of a Military Medal being awarded. His medal card shows entitlement to the British War & Victory Medals only. As he only enlisted in 1916, he cannot be entitled to the 1914-15 Star, so it looks like the Ribbons for the MM & Star belonged to another man. As for the notes on his discharge certificate, they are written in pen & appear to have been added at a later date.

My grandad had an older brother who may have been entitled to medals and I have wondered if some of these were his. The brother, 2nd Lt Robert Arthur Wagstaff, 624451, 29 Battalion MGC, was killed 1 Oct 1918 and is buried Ypres Reservoir Cemetery. His MIC though is strangely blank in regards to medals. And I have not yet seen his service file or found out his enlistment date. I have someone through the MGC/OAC conducting some research into his service and medals for me. Apparently a file exists at the NA and I hope to receive a copy of this in a few weeks time. So should know more then.

Perhaps that is where the Star came from? The MM though I am assuming is my grandad's because of the reference on his demob cert. Not sure why it would have been written there if it was not his? I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that not all MM's were issued for specific acts of bravery but were sometimes issued to groups of persons like those in the artillery for sustained periods of worthy performance or where they were not necessarily in a position to carry out brave acts? Could this be the case and if so would this have been gazetted? I have tried searching the London Gazette online with no luck on his name or number.

[aglastonbury]

It's possible that ribbons are his brothers. If he was older he could have joined up & got the star & been awarded the MM prior to been commissioned

[Blackblue]

Only appears to be one card for Robert. You are right...it has no medal details recorded.

He must have at least the BWM and VM. Despite him being recorded as Died on his Medal Index Card Soldierz Died lists him as Killed in Action and CGWC as buried in Ypres Reservoir Cemetery.

Rgds

Tim D

[headgardener]

I understand from the flyer being put out by Howard Williamson that his new book will show the significance of blue ink on the MICs.

Not relevant in this instance; it's a demob cert rather than an MIC.

It's possible that ribbons are his brothers. If he was older he could have joined up & got the star & been awarded the MM prior to been commissioned

The reference to the MM on his demob cert makes this possible, but probably unlikely.

If the writing is in a different hand to that which completed the rest of the form then we're looking at a subsequent amendment. It should also list his campaign medals, but it doesn't (although a lot of demob certificates were issued before the campaign medals were produced or entitlement was sorted out).

Also, the fact that he was so young when he joined up tells you that he volunteered rather than being conscripted (he wasn't old enough to be registered under the Military Service Act). Also, he wasn't a TF man, his service number confirms that he was a regular enlistment.

Considering his age I think that it's unlikely that he saw any earlier service. I had a quick look at the online indices for the RN, RM, RNVR and RNR, but there are no likely candidates. There were a few 'William Wagstaff's in the RN index, so you could have a look and see if either the birthdates add up (remember that he might have falsified his age, so the date may be right but the year could be wrong) or the place of birth (even if he made up his date of birth he'd be unlikely to lie about his place of birth).

On the face of it, we can't explain the 14 or 15 star ribbon or the MM ribbon, and the MM and '??? Cross' references.

I wonder if we'll be able to find evidence of an MM in the LG....?

[headgardener]

My grandad had an older brother who may have been entitled to medals and I have wondered if some of these were his. The brother, 2nd Lt Robert Arthur Wagstaff, 624451, 29 Battalion MGC, was killed 1 Oct 1918 and is buried Ypres Reservoir Cemetery. His MIC though is strangely blank in regards to medals.

Perhaps that is where the Star came from?

Only appears to be one card for Robert. You are right...it has no medal details recorded.

Officers had to apply for their campaign medals so, no application = no medals (or ribbons). Hence the MIC being blank.

All MM's would have been gazetted, regardless of the reasons for them being awarded. And if the MM was the brothers it would show on CWGC.

The fact that the medal ribbons are all mounted together links them all.

[Blackblue]

Leanne,

Are you aware that William's Service Papers are online at Ancestry?

Whats left of them anyway...you are right he appears to have his DOB as 1897.

Rgds

Tim

[lwftm]

The medal bar (which is upside down in your photo) shows - reading from left to right - the Victory medal, British War Medal, the ribbon for the 1914 or 1915 star, and the MM.

The reference to the 'Cross' of some kind could be one of the Serbian medals that were awarded to members of the British forces. It would make sense that it would be linked to whatever action led to him being awarded the MM, although there's no way of proving this without something like a newspaper cutting.

Thanks for the tip re the medal bar......feeling somewhat embarrassed to have got that wrong

If I wanted to search for a newspaper cutting re the MM or `Cross', would this likely be in the local papers to where he lived or only larger metropolitan papers? His families address at the time was 14 Arthur Rd, Chadwell Heath.

Also you asked about a closer look at the MIC's - I have a copy of his and his brother's - am I allowed to post these here? I sourced these from ancestry as a member.

[aglastonbury]

There is a good chance the local paper would have had something about it, you'll need to find out what the paper is & if its still going. If it is you can contact them about their archive, odds are they will be kept by the local records office but they should be able to point you in the right direction. If the paper isn't still going your best bet is go direct to the local records office.

Alex

[headgardener]

If I wanted to search for a newspaper cutting re the MM or `Cross', would this likely be in the local papers to where he lived or only larger metropolitan papers? His families address at the time was 14 Arthur Rd, Chadwell Heath.

Also you asked about a closer look at the MIC's - I have a copy of his and his brother's - am I allowed to post these here? I sourced these from ancestry as a member.

I *think* you can posts extracts from MIC's, but not the whole card itself (or something like that...). Any chance of posting extracts from both?

I had a quick look for an MM MIC for Robert on the NA online index; I checked various permutations of his surname, name(s), initials, units and regimental number, but nothing comes up. And, as I said, if the MM was Robert's it would show on CWGC.

The demob doc appears to relate the MM to William, but we're not turning anything up which proves that it was awarded. I'd have a good search through the LG before trying to look in the papers (it would be local papers, rather than the nationals, by the way). If no MM can be found in the LG then we'd have to conclude that it wasn't awarded. If it wasn't awarded then it won't be in the local papers.

Edit; regarding the 'Cross', is it possible to do a local enlargement of just that section? Those awards weren't always Gazetted. But, then again, we don't have a ribbon which corresponds to the medal......

[lwftm]

Leanne,

Are you aware that William's Service Papers are online at Ancestry?

Whats left of them anyway...you are right he appears to have his DOB as 1897.

Rgds

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the tip....yes I am an ancestry member and have a copy of his file. As you said `whats left of them'. His file sadly is part of the burned series of files and is damaged and many of the pages are in pieces. Though there are some good bits intact. Perhaps there are some relevant bits missing or I can't decipher parts correctly...... The only part that I can make out that references medals is a card that is signed acknowledging receipt of the BW and ? Medal likely the Victory Medal but it is almost impossible to read. This card is signed 12 Sept 1921. So as Headgardener suggested this likely means these medals were issued after the date the Demob cert was written out, which is probably in Nov 1919 when he was demobbed?

Until I posted this I'd never noticed that he lied about his age and was in fact so much younger. I am thinking then that he must have enlisted without his mum's knowledge (his Dad had been killed in 1915).

[lwftm]

I *think* you can posts extracts from MIC's, but not the whole card itself (or something like that...). Any chance of posting extracts from both?

I had a quick look for an MM MIC for Robert on the NA online index; I checked various permutations of his surname, name(s), initials, units and regimental number, but nothing comes up. And, as I said, if the MM was Robert's it would show on CWGC.

The demob doc appears to relate the MM to William, but we're not turning anything up which proves that it was awarded. I'd have a good search through the LG before trying to look in the papers (it would be local papers, rather than the nationals, by the way). If no MM can be found in the LG then we'd have to conclude that it wasn't awarded. If it wasn't awarded then it won't be in the local papers.

Edit; regarding the 'Cross', is it possible to do a local enlargement of just that section? Those awards weren't always Gazetted. But, then again, we don't have a ribbon which corresponds to the medal......

Happy to post extracts of both....by extract do you mean a cut down version of the actual picture of the MIC as I have done for the demob cert or a transcription of the MIC's?

I will definitley have a much more rigourous search of the LG. Would it be safe to say his MM would have been gazetted prior to Nov 1919 (the date shown on the demob cert)?

Re the `cross' this is cut and paste of just that part. I am thinking though it might be better if I can try and get another photo of the demob cert esp just of that section. I don't have it personally but may be able to get another look at it later this week???

Thanks for all your help so far

Cheers

Leanne

[lwftm]

This is it with the word `cross'

[Blackblue]

Is this his dad? There are only 2 in 1915 and the other one is only 23.

Name: WAGSTAFF, WILLIAM

Initials: W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars

Date of Death: 13/05/1915

Service No: 10051

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 5.

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Rgds

Tim

[rflory]

I cannot find anyone with the surname "Wagstaff" receiving the MM in the Royal Artillery during the Great War. Dick Flory

[headgardener]

Until I posted this I'd never noticed that he lied about his age and was in fact so much younger. I am thinking then that he must have enlisted without his mum's knowledge (his Dad had been killed in 1915).

Interestingly, the demob cert gives the correct year of birth (1899).

Happy to post extracts of both....by extract do you mean a cut down version of the actual picture of the MIC as I have done for the demob cert or a transcription of the MIC's?

I will definitley have a much more rigourous search of the LG. Would it be safe to say his MM would have been gazetted prior to Nov 1919 (the date shown on the demob cert)?

Re the `cross' this is cut and paste of just that part. I am thinking though it might be better if I can try and get another photo of the demob cert esp just of that section. I don't have it personally but may be able to get another look at it later this week???

Yes, by extracts I mean 'edited highlights'....! Any bit with writing on it. There'll be a bit that lists the medal roll that his BW&VM were issued from (it will read something like 'RGA 101b page 1234' - meaning the medals were issued from the RGA roll, and the rest is a reference to the actual roll number and page number). This won't tell you much beyond the first or last unit that he served overseas with. Basically, post any other bits with writing on them.

The cert also has a stamp on that section stating 'authorized prior to November 1918', which would suggest that any medal listed there should have been gazetted before this date. The 2nd word does look like 'cross', and it is in a section for listing medals. My guess is that the first word is 'Serbean' (in which case it's mispelt). I think it's a good idea to have another look at the LG, but bear in mind that it may not be there; we can't find an MIC for his MM. The idea of a card being lost is possible, so it's worth checking for that reason. As John pointed out earlier, the medals do seem to be a later, probably unofficial, addition to his certificate.

I don't have Ancestry, so I can't see which parts of his papers have survived. An award such as an MM should be recorded there. There's a specific section for 'honours and awards' (on page 2 or 3 of his attestation form?).

Edit; Dick posted while I was making this post.