Ball ammo

[Stuart212]

Can anyone please help me.

Why is Ball ammunition called that, has it something to do with the days of muskets ?

Many thanks.

Stuart

[Piorun]

Holdover from the days of musket balls. Differentiates it from pellets, flares, etc. Any solid (effectively) single metal round for rifle or handgun. Antony

[TonyE]

As Piorun says, the term goes back to when the normal infantry projectile was actually a lead ball for a musket.

In modern parlance (i.e. post the introduction of the self contained cartridge) "Ball" refers to the normal infantry bullet (sometimes referred to as the "service" load) and differentiates it from the other loadings such as blank, drill, tracer, armour piercing and incendiary.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Holdover from the days of musket balls. Differentiates it from pellets, flares, etc. Any solid (effectively) single metal round for rifle or handgun. Antony

The round ball was a problem in rifles. In a smooth bore musket there was enough space between the ball and the sides of the barrel (windage)to make loading easy. In a rifle there had to be contact which meant either that a tight fitting ball had to be literally hammered down the barrel or wrapped in leather. Either way made loading awkward and slow.A round projectile is not the most effective in a rifle anyway as the amount of contact with the rifling (lands) is small. The first effective bullet in service to get over these problems was the Minié the invention of Claude Etienne Minié a captain in the French army (although he may have been born in Belgium). This developed designs by a number of others and was a conical bullet with a significant open cone on its base. The Minié bullet was slightly smaller than the rifle bore so it slid down easily and when fired the expanding gases forced the sides of the cone outwards so that the bullet sides gripped the lands (in some versions there was a piece of harder metal that was forced up the cone so expanding it). In the middle of the 19th century almost all armies had adopted some form of Minié bullet including the British and American armies. Rather than produce a shorter barreled rifle they produced rifled versions of their full length muskets (known as rifle muskets). Muskets fire (musket) balls and the new ammunition was called (in British and American armies) Minié Balls even though there was nothing spherical about them. As some may have noticed the military are often a tad resistant to change which is why in WW1 men were sent on musketry courses where they learned to fire 'ball' from SMLEs

[Stuart212]

Many thanks to you all for your very interesting replies.

Cheers.

Stuart

[TonyE]

........As some may have noticed the military are often a tad resistant to change which is why in WW1 men were sent on musketry courses where they learned to fire 'ball' from SMLEs

Not just in WWI, C!

Our lads in Afghanistan are shooting "Round, Small Arm, 5.56mm, Ball, L2A2" (among others) today. The identifying symbol for ordinary ball ammo on modern British SAA packets is still a black "ball". See this one for 7.62mm ammo.

Regards

TonyE

[Pete1052]

As Piorun said, "ball" ammo has been a term in military nomenclature in the British and U.S. Armies since the days of the muzzle-loading Brown Bess. It has been thus ever since the British defeat at Yorktown, at New Orleans some years later, and the times we had to come over and save your butts during Wars I and II. Why should we change a time-honored tradition?

[Stuart212]

Tony, many thanks for that, incredible that the term is still in use.

Cheers.

Stuart

[Stuart212]

Is that the time honored tradition of military terminology or shooting at the Brits ?

[MikB]

As Piorun said, "ball" ammo has been a term in military nomenclature in the British and U.S. Armies since the days of the muzzle-loading Brown Bess. It has been thus ever since the British defeat at Yorktown, at New Orleans some years later, and the times we had to come over and save your butts during Wars I and II. Why should we change a time-honored tradition?

(Must not rise to bait... Must not rise to bait... )

Remember that in common parlance Fritz also uses 'Kugel' and Jean-Paul uses 'balle' for practically any sort of smallarms projectile, and both mean 'ball'.

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

I am reminded that one of my ancestors visited Washington in 1814 (with a few friends) and dined at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Unfortunately the President was out but they seem to have had a ball. Someone was a mite careless with the matches though and a repaint job (in white) was needed.

[TonyE]

As Piorun said, "ball" ammo has been a term in military nomenclature in the British and U.S. Armies since the days of the muzzle-loading Brown Bess. It has been thus ever since the British defeat at Yorktown, at New Orleans some years later, and the times we had to come over and save your butts during Wars I and II. Why should we change a time-honored tradition?

I am so pleased to see that Pete is keeping this thread on topic by talking "balls".

Regards

TonyE

[tocemma]

and the times we had to come over and save your butts during Wars I and II. Why should we change a time-honored tradition?

Ahh,you mean when you took part in the 1917-1918 war and the 1941-1945 war. Thanks for reminding us....again!

Tocemma

[centurion]

Ahh,you mean when you took part in the 1917-1918 war

Tocemma

Isn't that the one where Britain and France had to equip the US forces with machine guns, mortars, artillery, tanks and aircraft?

[Piorun]

Well, lads, I suppose arriving very late is better than not arriving at all. Then again . . . . . . . . . . ??!! Antony

[Garron]

Isn't that the one where Britain and France had to equip the US forces with machine guns, mortars, artillery, tanks and aircraft?

It is also the one where they didn't have enough rifles and bayonet so had adapt a British rifle for use, wich 75% of the US Army used in the Short 17-18 War (or Operation Belgian Freedom)

It more like a young Son giving his Father a hand, without Britian I doubt we could understand Pete1052 or many other Americans, They would still be speaking be speaking Cherokee, Apache ect. Though more likely German, Spanish or Dutch .

Gaz

[TonyE]

They speak English?

Cheers

TonyE

[centurion]

It is also the one where they didn't have enough rifles and bayonet so had adapt a British rifle for use, wich 75% of the US Army used in the Short 17-18 War (or Operation Belgian Freedom)

It more like a young Son giving his Father a hand, without Britian I doubt we could understand Pete1052 or many other Americans, They would still be speaking be speaking Cherokee, Apache ect. Though more likely German, Spanish or Dutch .

Gaz

Or very possibly French. The colonies only started getting stroppy once Britain had removed the French threat to them.

[RammyLad1]

Blimey Pete

Incoming .... Keep your head down Pike

Duncan

[Pete1052]

I am reminded that one of my ancestors visited Washington in 1814 ...

Centurian has his ancestors and I have mine. During the 1870s my maternal grandfather was born on a farm in southern Indiana near the state line with Kentucky. Our family's deed to the farm was signed by President Andrew Jackson, "Old Hickory," the U.S. commander at the Battle of New Orleans. An ancestor of mine was in the Kentucky militia during the War of 1812, though I do not know what he did during the war. I believe the farm was a reward for that ancestor's military service during the Affair of 1812.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.

There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.

We fired once more and they began to runnin' on

Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.

And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.

They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.

We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise

If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye

We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.

Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles

And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.

They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em

Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

[John Thorne]

And what does any of this have to do with Ball Ammunition?

While our British colleagues are taking this lightly, as a fellow American, I quite frankly find your comments unacceptable. This is forum operated by adults. Surely there is another place on the internet where you can vent your off-topic nonsense?

[Pete1052]

Lighten up. These guys know me and they also know a grandfather of mine was in the 17th London. Honi soit qui mal y pense, and all that.

[MikB]

Well, lads, I suppose arriving very late is better than not arriving at all. Then again . . . . . . . . . . ??!! Antony

Yes - America finally doing the right thing... "after", as Churchill said, "exhausting all the other possibilities..."

Regards,

MikB

[truthergw]

Centurian has his ancestors and I have mine. During the 1870s my maternal grandfather was born on a farm in southern Indiana near the state line with Kentucky. Our family's deed to the farm was signed by President Andrew Jackson, "Old Hickory," the U.S. commander at the Battle of New Orleans. An ancestor of mine was in the Kentucky militia during the War of 1812, though I do not know what he did during the war. I believe the farm was a reward for that ancestor's military service during the Affair of 1812.

I am fairly sure that America is not old enough for its citizens to have ancestors. The most I could allow you, in all conscience, is a few grandads and great-uncles with the appropriate complement on the distaff side.

[Ice Tiger]

They speak English?

TonyE

Two nations separated by a common language :-)

Andy