stormswift Posted 16 May , 2011 Share Posted 16 May , 2011 Good morning all. I am trying to research Charles Bailey, my great grandfather. Unfortunately I know very little about him. I have found him on the 1901 &1911 censuses, I have also acquired his marriage certificate. From this I have a possible year of birth 1881 in Birmingham and a fathers name of William who was deceased when he married. That is all I have atm with the option now of trial and error with birth certs. So I was pleasantly surprised when a 14 day trial @ Ancestry has allowed me to find his service record from WW1. More so when I read that 60% of the records where lost to fire in WW2. I am hoping then to get the maximum information from these documents to learn about his life in the forces at this time and possibly get something to aid me in my ancestral search. With this in mind can I start with the 1st 2 pages. I have uploaded them to photobucket and will post links if this is ok. 1:- http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/xstevex64/page1.jpg 2:- http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/xstevex64/page2.jpg These look to be same form filled in a week apart. I notice that there isn't a date of birth, disappointing , and a conflict with age on them both as 1 states 33, the other 32 although I'm not sure what that 21 could be ? The only other thing I can see here is the previous regiment no 7314. Could this lead me to another document / record? Many thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 16 May , 2011 Share Posted 16 May , 2011 The note with the 7314 shows "Time Expired" meaning that he had previously served in the Army and had served a full 12 years (probably 7 years on active service and 5 on Reserve back in civilian employment, though 3 and 9 was common for enlistments just after the Boer War). Have you located all the extra pages behind these initial documents using the left and right arrows on the Ancestry browser> Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 16 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2011 Hi Steve, yes I have acquired 13 various pages. One of which is a death certificate for one of his children who I or my mother knew nothing about. I am intending to, if I may, work through them to get as much as I can from them. In regards of the 7314, would there be service records or the like available somewhere to download or view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 16 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2011 The 2nd page has an age of 32 yrs and 21? Any idea what this may be, I thought from the 1st page it may be months but there aren't 21 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 16 May , 2011 Share Posted 16 May , 2011 Most of the pre-war records were kept with the First World War records if the men had prior service. It would seem likely that the earlier record was lost in the fire, but sometimes the records don't show the number due to the damage, so it my be worth checking other records without numbers to look. There is also a chance that his pre-war record wasn't transferred to the new file and that it still exists in WO97. These are at the National Archives or online at FindMyPast. The age looks like 32 years and 213 days (or 217 or 218). That would equate to a date of birth of about 11.2.1882 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 16 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2011 Most of the pre-war records were kept with the First World War records if the men had prior service. It would seem likely that the earlier record was lost in the fire, but sometimes the records don't show the number due to the damage, so it my be worth checking other records without numbers to look. There is also a chance that his pre-war record wasn't transferred to the new file and that it still exists in WO97. These are at the National Archives or online at FindMyPast. The age looks like 32 years and 213 days (or 217 or 218). That would equate to a date of birth of about 11.2.1882 Steve. Many thanks Steve I'll give FMP a try later once I've gotten through these. The birth date is a pain everywhere he has put 1881 as he did with the other page 33 yrs and 2 months? would = 1881. I'll look into an index for 1st Q 1882 as well then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 16 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2011 Moving on to the next page. http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/xstevex64/page3.jpg This appears to be record sheet. The 1st column is damaged The first 3 dates refer to a force, don't know if its one word or 2 abbreviations ( ?? / ???) After that I see he was given 10 days detention by his C.O for absence, Is that 12 days pay forfeit for the absence from 2nd - 13th sep 1915 I think then he is transferred to civil employment with Williams & Rolinson of Victoria Works Rugby Finally transferred to Royal Garrison Artillery I'd be grateful for any corrections to the mistakes I will have inevitably have made. On other docs the ones with descriptions hair, eyes etc the approving officer appointed him to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, I believe this is the 3237 no. It would appear he is a private ? The last action on the record sees him move to the Royal Garrison Artillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 The page you have posted is the same as one in the other set - the left hand column (an important column) has suvived on that set: I believe the sheet reads as follows: Attested (enlisted), 15th September 1914 Posted, 1st October 1914 (the unit is not stated but is likely to be the 3rd Reserve Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment due to his number being prefixed with a "3/" Posted to 2nd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment for overseas duty with the British Expeditionary Force (B.E.F.) in France and Belgium on 11th November 1914. Posted to the Depot of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment after his return to the UK on 7th February 1915 (by 1915 it was usual to allocate a man to the Depot on his return to the UK when wounded/sick, etc.) Posted to the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 9th April 1915 to await allocation of new posting. Awarded 10 days detention by Commanding Officer for absence on 14th September 1915. Forfeits 12 days pay for absence from 2nd to 13th September 1915, punishment being laid down on 15th September 1915 (the Army did not pay for periods of absence without leave) Posted back to 2nd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment for a second period of duty in France and Flanders on 30th September 1915. Posted to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment Depot for Records Purposes on 7th November 1915 Posted to (probably) 3rd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment to await allocation of new posting. Transferred to Civil Employment at Messrs Willans & Robinson*, Victoria Works at Rugby on 24th March 1916 Posted to Royal Warwickshire Regiment Depot for Records purposes on 24th March 1916 Transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery on 25th September 1916 His rank is Private throughout up to his transfer to the R.G.A. * Willans & Robinson appear to have manufactured steam engines to drive electric turbines on ships. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 17 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Apologies for the links, first time with photobucket. I didn't know if you could see all the pictures uploaded or just the one the link points to. Thanks also for interpreting the page for me. I have started again at photobucket and uploaded all the pages I received from Ancestry on Charles Bailey's service record for you to peruse. I have also redone the links so that they still correspond to the right page. looking through it appears that there are two sets of the same docs. Not exact duplicates as each has subtle differences if the way the information is laid out, but to me looks like it is saying the same thing. Was this common? There is also reference to him in the RGA, the death cert gives him a rank of staff sargeant in no199 siege battery, while the pensions & protection docs look like staff sargeant in 2nd battalion? http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/xstevex64/page1.jpg should get you to all 14 pages then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 I'll run through his postings with other units if you would like me to. I didn't want to get ahead of myself (plus it was late when I looked at them yesterday). Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 17 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2011 That would be great, thanks. One thing I keep coming across I dont understand is the address. Leicester Square Great Lister Street various no's 14, 4, 11. Are these 2 different addresses? Does everything go through the address in Leicester square then get forwarded on to Great Lister street? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 I suspect the "Square" may be a sub-address on a larger street. The famous "back-to-back"s spring to mind when talking about squares in larger cities, especially Birmingham, where there are the only surviving examples still existing. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 17 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 17 May , 2011 I suspect the "Square" may be a sub-address on a larger street. The famous "back-to-back"s spring to mind when talking about squares in larger cities, especially Birmingham, where there are the only surviving examples still existing. Steve. Possible, but all I can find on OS maps atm is a Lister Square, near to St Matthews Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Willans and Robinson were the first to arrive [in Rugby]in 1899 to build high speed reciprocating steam engines to drive electric generators. This is fro Googling W.. & R... D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Here is the expanded timeline for Charles Bailey's war, based on the records that are available. Attested (enlisted) at Birmingham on 15th September 1914 Posted, 1st October 1914 (the unit is not stated but is likely to be the 3rd Reserve Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment due to his number being prefixed with a "3/" Posted to 2nd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment for overseas duty with the British Expeditionary Force (B.E.F.) in France and Belgium on 11th November 1914. Embarked to France on 11th November 1914 Posted to the Depot of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment after his return to the UK on 7th February 1915 (by 1915 it was usual to allocate a man to the Depot on his return to the UK when wounded/sick, etc.) Classed as back on Home soil from 7th February 1915 Posted to the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 9th April 1915 to await allocation of new posting. Awarded 10 days detention by Commanding Officer for absence on 14th September 1915. Forfeits 12 days pay for absence from 2nd to 13th September 1915, punishment being laid down on 15th September 1915 (the Army did not pay for periods of absence without leave) Posted back to 2nd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment for a second period of duty in France and Flanders on 30th September 1915. Embarked back to France on 30th September 1915 Posted to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment Depot for Records Purposes on 7th November 1915 Posted to (probably) 3rd Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment to await allocation of new posting. Returned "Home" on 7th November 1915 Transferred to Civil Employment at Messrs Willans & Robinson*, Victoria Works at Rugby on 24th March 1916 Posted to Royal Warwickshire Regiment Depot for Records purposes on 24th March 1916 Transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery on 25th September 1916 Returned to France on 25th September 1916 Posted to "Dr Hy"(?) - possibly Heavy Depot, on 25th September 1916 Posted to 199th Siege Battery, R.G.A. on 21st November 1916 Wounded on 6th June 1917 Posted to 21st Siege Battery, R.G.A. on 20th July 1917 Returned "Home" on 15th August 1917 Posted to Clearing Office on 15th August 1917 Unknown, dated 7th February 1918 Posted to Siege School at Lydd on 20th April 1918 Posted to 2nd Battery / 1st Siege Artillery Reserve Brigade on 10th September 1918 Suffered gas poisoning at some point Also wounded - GSW (gunshot wound) to head (possibly the June 1917 wound since it is cited on his pension documents) Trained with 6" Breach-loading Howitzer equipment The War Diary for 21st Siege Battery for the very short period that Charles Bailey was with them is at the National Archives under reference: WO 95/297 21 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1915 Jan. - 1917 July 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment's war diary: WO 95/1664 2 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment 1914 Sept. - 1917 Nov. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 199th Siege Battery went to France in November 1916 - Charles Bailey probably joined it from the Base in France once it arrived. There is no war diary in the National Archives Catalogue index, suggesting that it was possibly part of a H.A.G. (Heavy Artillery Group). Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 17 May , 2011 Share Posted 17 May , 2011 Great Lister Street is still there, in the "V" formed by the A47 and the A4540 in the Duddeston area, though only the western part of the original street remains. The area is now mainly industrial with a bit of modern housing. The area was redeveloped after World War Two. Great Lister Street is still crossed by Adams Street and Windsor Street, that were there (in name at least) in the early 1900s. There is a map of the original street layout here: http://www.mapseeker.co.uk/genealogy/?id=1144&areaA=a2&areaB=b5&p=&s= There certainly seem to have been Courtyard buildings along the street, though I cannot identify "Leicester Square" specifically. The old Duke Street (and Lawrence Street) mentioned on the 1901 Census have disappeared under the Birmingham City University, and were very near to Great Lister Street, lying just to the west. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 18 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2011 Many thanks for all your work Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 31 May , 2011 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2011 199th Siege Battery went to France in November 1916 - Charles Bailey probably joined it from the Base in France once it arrived. There is no war diary in the National Archives Catalogue index, suggesting that it was possibly part of a H.A.G. (Heavy Artillery Group). Steve. I have acquired the diary for 2nd bat RWR and I'm currently working through it. Trying as best I can to decipher the handwriting, a lot of it is fairly easy tho. Q: Is there any way to find out what H.A.G, if any, the 199th Siege Battery was part of. To try and locate a possible diary to trace Charles between 21/11/16 & 20/07/17 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 1 June , 2011 Share Posted 1 June , 2011 199th Siege Battery left Southampton and arrived Le Havre on the 25th November 1916. Like a lot of batteries they changed HAGs/brigades fairly frequently. They joined 14 Corp on the 3rd December 1916 and then; to 49 HAG 6 Dec 1916 to 77 HAG 22 Dec 1916 to 39 HAG 10 Feb 1917 to 24 HAG 20 May 1917 to 93 HAG 18 June 1917 You can search on the NA site using the number and "brigade", such as http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2239549&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2C49%2CBRIGADE&accessmethod=0 . Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 7 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2011 199th Siege Battery left Southampton and arrived Le Havre on the 25th November 1916. Like a lot of batteries they changed HAGs/brigades fairly frequently. They joined 14 Corp on the 3rd December 1916 and then; to 49 HAG 6 Dec 1916 to 77 HAG 22 Dec 1916 to 39 HAG 10 Feb 1917 to 24 HAG 20 May 1917 to 93 HAG 18 June 1917 You can search on the NA site using the number and "brigade", such as http://www.nationala...&accessmethod=0 . Kevin Many thanks Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 3 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2011 I have now managed to find Charles previous service. The no. mentioned in the WW1 service records 7314 time expired and the no. 6, these relate to him joining as a militiaman in the 6th Royal Warwick Regiment. Private 7314 joined at the age of 17 years and 2 months on 22 August 1899. I now have a new possible DOB approx June 1882, but alas still no luck in locating an index. If someone could have a look at the attachment and let me know what you think it reads. They are 2 address Charles has named as his residence in the 12 months preceding joining up. I am hoping he was still at home with parents at about 16 before possibly moving out and joining the forces. It looks to me like he moved to 11 Cromwell Street, Birmingham from 28 Weyman Street, Birmingham. Would the form be filled out by the recruiter and then signed by Charles, if so could the name Weyman be a misspelt version of Weaman street? As I am unable to find a location spelt with a "y" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 30 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2012 I am now starting out on the war diaries for the RWR when Charles was with them. I can hopefully then trace his movements and find out what he was doing. I have most of this page I believe. Theres just a couple of points I could do with help on. The 1st line I think is a name but I can't make it out. Also the very bottom what Rifles? What are the 10 L, North Lancers. Could they be Lieutenants ? Finally is the O.R ordinary recruits?.. Heres what I have. 6:00am 10/11/1914@ BAILLEUL Major ? ? arrived and took over command of battalion at BAILLEUL. Battalion paraded 9:00am and marched to MERRIS where billeted.General Capper ? inspected billets about 5:00pm Strength of Battalion 5 officers – O.R. 11/11/1914@ MERRIS Draft : Major Monteagh – Brown 10 L North Lancers Regiment 150 O.R arrived 12/11/1914@ MERRIS Draft : O.R 90 arrived O.R. 158 arrived Battalion re-organised into 4 companies again. 13/11/1914MERRIS Men re-billeted according to companies. Major R.P. FULLER Leicester Riflesattached to Battalion Freed by General Court Martial. 2nd Lieutenants B.A. STANDRING G.B. MONK P.F.W ? Y.V. PEARCE All joined 2nd Battalion on probation from ?Rifles Thanks for looking Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 31 January , 2012 Share Posted 31 January , 2012 The first reference is to the 10th Battalion of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. O.R. = Other Ranks (i.e. anyone not an officer) The Rifles is the Artists Rifles - the 28th Battalion of the London Regiment, which was an officer training battalion in France. The Major may be R H W Brewis - Robert Herny Watkin Brewis, later killed on 18-12-1914. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=187005 The word with the Court Martial is "Tried", not "Freed", I think. And it will be the Leicestershire Regiment, not Rifles. The arriving officers would be: Benjamin Arthur Standring, KIA 19-12-1914 Geoffrey Vincent Pearce, KIA 19-12-1914 George Bertram Monk - KIA 18-12-1914 Looks like a bad time for the new officers.... (The above three men were commissioned together : http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29086/pages/2105) but I can't make out the P F W name! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormswift Posted 31 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2012 Once again Stevie you are a fountain of knowledge, thanks for the help. On a side note would there be any maps of the time depicting the places I will come across in these diaries? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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