corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Two ADRIC Intelligence officers disappeared on 6 Nov 1920. Cadets Bertram Agnew and Lionel Mitchell are reported missing at Macroom, Co. Cork. It is believed that they were kidnapped by the IRA on their way from Macroom to Cork and then interrogated and killed. Their bodies were never found. I can get background on Mitchell 1897 Jan/Mar born Chard, Somerset 1901 census living at Market Place, Crewkerne 1911 census living at 4 High St Newport Pagnell Enlists in Ox and Bucks Light Infantry, and later transfers to Royal Berks Regt. 1918 Mar 28 LG Citation for DCM 1918 Sep 25. R Berks Regt. Temp. 2nd Lt. Lionel Ralph Mitchell, from Gen. List (I.A.R. of O.), to be temp.2nd Lt. 1920 Mar 20. R Berks Regt. Temp. 2nd Lt. L. R. Mitchell to be temp. Lt. 1920 Aug 17. R. Berks. R. Temp. Lt. L. R. Mitchell relinquishes his commission on completion of service, and retains the rank of Lt. 1920 Aug 17. Joined ADRIC with service no 298 ar C Coy, Macroom. Section Leader Agnew is more enigmatic. All I can get is 1896 Born Lancashire 1920 Jan 14. RNR. Sub-Lieuts. to be Lieuts. Bertram V. A. Agnew. 1920 Aug 17. Joined ADRIC with service no 370. C Coy Macroom. There do not seem to have been questions raised in House of Commons at the time of Independence. They just seem to have sunk from history. Does anybody know anything more about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Hi, This is from the Irish Times 5 Nov 1921 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Thanks Mark Odd that the bodies were never recovered one of the Kilmichael casualties, Gutherie was put into a hidden grave, but the body given up in 1926. And this was in the Macroom area as well Cecil Gutherie was the driver of the second Crossley Carrier at the Kilmichael ambush. Although wounded he walked over five miles trying to return to barracks at Macroom but was captured. He was held captive for two days and then murdered and buried secretely in a a bog at Annahala. His body remained there until 1926 when it was disinterred and buried at Inchigeelagh Churchyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmania Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 According to Richard Abbott's book, Agnew was born on 14 January 1896 and Mitchell on 8 January 1897. Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Thanks Aled It looks as if need to buy Abbots book It might give me more to go on with Agnew. RIC roll says born Lancashire, but I cannot find a Bertram Agnew born anywhere then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Hi, Could he be 'Beitie/Bertie' ? Regards Mark 1911 Census 57 Longfield Road Litherland HOLLIDAY, Herbert H Head Married M 30 1881 Dock Labourer Batley Yorks HOLLIDAY, Emily Wife Married 5 years F 27 1884 Liverpool Lanc HOLLIDAY, Elsie Daughter F 4 1907 Liverpool Lanc HOLLIDAY, Harry Son M 2 1909 Liverpool Lanc AGNEW, Annie Mother In Law Widow F 70 1841 Holywell Wales Resident AGNEW, Beitie Adopted Son M 14 1897 Apprentice Painter Liverpool Lanc AGNEW, Dolly Adopted Daughter F 6 1905 Liverpool Lanc CHATTERTON, Charlie M 0 (2 MONTHS) 1911 Liverpool Lanc 1901 Census 59, Tagus Street, Toxteth Park AGNEW, Annie Head Widow F 60 1841 Nurse (Monthly) Holywell Flintshire AGNEW, Emily Daughter Single F 16 1885 Liverpool Lancashire AGNEW, Bertie Son Single M 3 1898 Liverpool Lancashire COWARD, James Boarder Married M 68 1833 Living On Own Means Feeble Minded Kendal Westmorland COWARD, Sarah Boarder Married F 49 1852 London ELLARD, Mary Visitor Married F 34 1867 Rhyl Flintshire ELLARD, Richard Visitor Single M 2 1899 Rhyl Flintshire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Mark Looks spot on to me - great lateral thinking. I see he was adopted, as well Thanks very much. These things tend to be like logical puzzles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2011 I reckon his birth is 1898 Jan 14. Born Bertram Vivian Archer at Toxteth Park and was adopted by Annie Agnew Given his service record gives Bertram V A Agnew He must have added a couple of years to his age to enlist And found him in TNA catalogue Name: Bertram Vivian Archer Agnew. Date and Place of Birth: 14 January 1897, Liverpool. Record Card Numbers: 49 - 51. So my take on him is on this link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 22 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Quite sad what one can uncover Bertram was christened as the son of Adam and Emily Archer of 59 Tagus St in March 1898. In Apr 1901 at the census a 16 year old Emily Agnew, daughter of Annie Agnew (Annie is his adoptive mother), is living with Annie Agnew and Bertram at 59 Tagus St. And in 1911 census Annie and Bertie are still living with Emily who by now has married a Herbert Holiday. Emily Agnew would only have been 13 or perhaps at most 14 when she had the child. Emily herself had been adopted by the Agnews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 I have put a thread in the Navy Sub forum to see if I can get any more on his naval career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Hi, Here are his Medals listed, looks like must have been serving in 1915. Regards Mark Name: Bertram V A Agnew Medal or Award: Star, Victory Medal, British War Medal Service Year: 1914-1920 Service Location: Europe Campaign or Service: World War I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks Mark I have found now from the Naval Forum that he was a sub-Lt from Jan 1918, and served after that on the Flower Class sloop, Honeysuckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Hi, The WW1 Flower Class were purpose built as Minesweepers. They had reinforced bows to improve survivability if struck by a mine. In 1917 they were re-fitted to carry depth charges and re-deployed as Convoy Escorts. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2011 I got a lot about the naval side of his life on the naval sub forum thread I started. The person supplying the info there specialised in Flower Class sloops. He leads me back for Agnew in the RNR to his enlistment 1914 Oct 19 Midshipman RNR [probationary]. What is odd about this is that in 1911 census Agnew is a 14 year old "apprentice painter" in a poor household in Liverpool, and 3 years later is a midshipman in RNR That naval-sub forum also gave me the regulations for becoming a midshipman, and he would have had to have been at a training establishment for two years to qualify. It is difficult to see how he could have achieved this. Though his baptism cert does say that his natural father was a "mariner", but I cannot find him in 1901 or 1911 census. Mind you his name may be incorrect. I am fairly sure now that Agnew's mother was only 13 when he was born, and she would have conceived at the age of 12 and a half. It is impossible at this distance to say if it was promiscuity, naivety, rape or any other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 24 April , 2011 Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Hi, They both appear on this Memorial Tablet from Irish Times 26 April 1924. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 24 April , 2011 Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Hi, I noticed on the Citation for Lionel Mitchel's DCM it mentions 'St Pauls Churchyard. I was wondering what it is in reference too? For his Ox and Bucks Light Infantry service number 22875 the nearest service numbers I can find are 22864 enlisted 17 March 1916 22865 enlisted 14 March 1916 22866 enlisted 22 March 1916 So I think he most likely enlisted around March 1916? Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Ok there are two things bugging me now 1. As Mark points out what does "St Pauls Churchyard" refer to in DCM citation. I have no idea and it was written well before he died. This is the cut and paste from LG 2. Agnew is repeatedly quoted as DSC, but people have helpfully told me He is not in Fevyer's roll for the DSC 1901-38. There is no mention of him having a DSC in the December 1918 Navy List. So I am doubtful that he had DSC 3, Mark I would be grateful if you could add the bottom of that post about compensation you made in post #2. which ends with saying the father got £600 and the mother ....??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 24 April , 2011 Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Hi, Have checked some other service records and I think he must have enlisted in St Paul's Churchyard, London. For post #2 the word after mother is just a blur on the site but I think it is £?00. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 24 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2011 Thanks. The compensation looks a bit odd, as if the father and mother are not living together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 25 April , 2011 Share Posted 25 April , 2011 Hi, On the 28 Nov 1918 Army List Special List *2nd Lieutenant Mitchell LR 25Sept18 Empld with Ind Army (Res of Off) (on prob) On the 27 Nov 1919 Army List Royal Berkshire Regiment Service Battalions (5th - 8th Bn) *2nd Lieutenant Mitchell LR 25Sept18 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 25 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2011 Thanks Mark I still cannot see what is going on here. He appears to have been commissioned into Indian Army Reserve of officers on 25th Sept, then straight on to Royal Berks Regt the same day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 25 April , 2011 Share Posted 25 April , 2011 Here he is on the Ofiicer's Long Number list. Maybe the 'M I' is Military Intelligence? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 25 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2011 Thank, I have added the reference to the things I need to look up in TNA in the summer when am there. As you say it could be "military intelligence", but I don't know enough about it to be certain. My guess would be that he would have needed some background in intelligence to have been IO for that ADRIC coy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 26 April , 2011 Share Posted 26 April , 2011 Hi, Here is Lionel Ralph Mitchell's Application for appointment to the India Army Reserve of Officers Mitchell, Lionel Ralph IARO IOR/L/MIL/9/608/41-43 [n.d.] IOR Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 26 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2011 Thanks for the reference Mark Does anyone know what the attraction of applying for Indian Army Reserve of Officers was at that time. There seem to be hundreds of applications on that reference. Mitchel got his Indian Army commission and went straight on to a British Army commission the same day It is as if they did it to short-circuit the commissioning process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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