corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 I have a thread in the Ireland sub forum about this man on this link. This is my current knowledge of him on this link. A sad story about both his birth and his death. His mother was only 13 or 14 and as far as I can ascertain his body has never been found in Ireland What I am posting here is specifically for his service. He appears to have been in RNR and got DSC. However I have been able to glean little of his naval career. The only LG entry I can get is 1920 Jan 14. RNR. Sub-Lieut. to be Lieut. Bertram V. A. Agnew. And there is a TNA reference ADM 340/1/33 Bertram Vivian Archer Agnew. Liverpool. Record Card Numbers: 49 - 51. which I can get when I am there in the summer Can anyone with more knowledge of RNR than I help at all here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 His seniority as a Sub-Lt RNR is 14.1.18 & he was appointed to the Flower class sloop HONEYSUCKLE 9.9.18, still there December 1918. He is not in Fevyer's roll for the DSC 1901-38. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks you very much for that help. Does that mean, OCR not withstanding, that I should be able get his commission in LG sometime after 14 Jan 1918 Can I deduce that He is unlikely to have DSC if he not in Fevyer but not impossible(my knowledge of reference books nautical is limited!) Mark Hifle has found his medal entry which shows Medal or Award: Star, Victory Medal, British War Medal So he was serving in 1914 somewhere Given he was born in Jan 1898, but appears to have altered it to Jan 1896 for enlistment, and given that he was a 14 year old apprentice painter in 1911 census, it is unlikely that he would have become a Sub-Lt in 1918 without some prior nautical appointment. Is this a fair supposition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Wilson Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Nor could I find him listed in 'Fringes of the Fleet & The Distinguished Service Cross' by R.C.Witte. Have you checked the Newspaper archives for an obituary or reports as to the circumstances surrounding his death? I did a quick LG search earlier this morning but drew a blank re an award of the DSC. Have you looked for his service papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks. As I put in the OP, I have still to check his service record in TNA in the summer (only get there once a year) The only press report appears to be the one in Irish Times, when the parents of the other man murdered got compensation Agnew's birth mother presumably could not claim compensation and granny and grandpa were dead. So his circumstances never entered the public domain if nobody claimed. The abduction and murder is shrouded in fog. Both Agnew and Mitchell were "intelligence" but were ADRIC. Dublin Castle tended not to comment on intelligence deaths, and this was never proven death anyway. Nobody ever "claimed responsibility" for their abduction, nor apart from Tom Barry's have I unearthed anything. Barry was the man responsible for the Kilmichael Ambush and for most of the War Of Independence activity in Cork Wikipedia on Barry. So he really was the man who should have known what happened, without having to make enquiries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 I have searched back a bit farther with some Navy Lists & found:- Midshipman RNR [proby] 1.10.14. Appointed to the armed merchant cruiser VIRGINIAN 10.12.14. Appointed to the armed merchant cruiser ANDES 22.9.16. Appointed to the torpedo boat destroyer SARACEN 14.7.17 & is an Acting Sub-Lt RNR in the October 1917 Navy List. He is a permanent officer in the RNR. I suppose no reference book is infallible but have found Fevyer's rolls to be very good as they are researched from the London Gazette. There is no mention of him having a DSC in the December 1918 Navy List. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks, very kind of you. What seems odd to me is that he could have been a Midshipman in Oct 1914. Though I don't doubt that he was. In 1911 census he was aged 14 and an Apprentice Painter. Admittedly he has added a year and perhaps 2 to his age, but for a bloke from what was a humble background and no naval experience, seems like a big step up in the world. One wonders what he told the navy to get the job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks, very kind of you. What seems odd to me is that he could have been a Midshipman in Oct 1914. Though I don't doubt that he was. In 1911 census he was aged 14 and an Apprentice Painter. Admittedly he has added a year and perhaps 2 to his age, but for a bloke from what was a humble background and no naval experience, seems like a big step up in the world. One wonders what he told the navy to get the job! Attached is part of the Regulations for the RNR from the Navy List for September 1915. Midshipmen had to be aged between 16 & 18. "Exceptionally desirable candidates may be appointed as Midshipmen up to the age of 19, provided their applications were received at the Admiralty before they reached the ordinary age limit of 18". He would not have been accepted on his word alone, are you sure about him being an Apprentice Painter rather than an Apprentice in the Merchant Marine? David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 His whole life as I have it is on this link The 1911 census excerpt is there, and certainly says "Apprentice Painter". His mother is Emily Holiday on that excerpt, who is married to a Dock labourer. But the boy does not seem to be "officer entry" material The "regulations" indicate that he would have had to have spent 2 years (so between Apr 1911 and Oct 1914) on approved training. I guess it might be possible, but not probable. Only thing I can think of is that his real father, given on Birth Cert as "Mariner", somehow returned to take him to sea. Anyway thanks for the input, you have helped me fill in the war years for Bertram Agnew. PS I see your interest is Flower Class Sloops, how many officers did they have, the total crew seems to have been about 80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 23 April , 2011 Share Posted 23 April , 2011 It varied between about four & six. HONEYSUCKLE had the following officers listed against her December 1918. Lt-Com. [ret] Charles W. E. Whish. Lt. RNR Stanley G. Kirk. Lt. RNR George A. Dawson. Temp. Eng. Lt. Charles F. Robinson. Sub-Lt. RNR Bertram V. A. Agnew. Surg. Sub-Lt. RNVR Arthur H. M. Eaton. Total crew numbers seem to vary. According to Warships of World War 1 by H. M. Le Fleming, 77-104 for ACACIA Types, 79 for AZALEA & ARABIS Types, 80 for AUBRETIA & ANCHUSA Types. Having said that, I can only find 75 for ARABIS when she was sunk. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 23 April , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2011 Thanks very much The British officers who served in Ireland were a varied bunch. By the nature of the work there most were army, with a sprinkling of RAF. Very few naval, which is why mu experience of naval records is so dire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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