Firing an SMLE From the Hip

[alex falbo]

Marching Fire was a concept bandied about by the AEF as a way of breaking the stalemate of trench warfare during the Great War. The idea was that if an attacking element is firing all of its weapons at the enemy he will keep his head down and be too scared to come up out of his holes and return fire. In practice however it often means tremendous amounts of ammunition are expended with little effect at all. The issuing of selective fire small arms, those having switches that enable automatic or semiautomatic fire, to individual soldiers since World War II has only made the problem worse. The modern term for Marching Fire is Suppressive Fire.

Marching Fire is defined as mobile suppressive fire during the advance on a given position in order to intimidate, immediately suppress or outright eliminate enemy combatants engaging the assault while not slowing down to return aimed fire. The British arguably gave rise to this tactic with the adoption and use of the Lewis Gun and by 1917, both suppressive fire and marching fire were common place at Arras, Third Ypres and Cambrai. 1918 and in particular the Hundred Days saw the ultimate in mobile fire and squad/section flank and maneuver tactics published the year before and distributed through the British Army as SS pamphlets 143 &135. The Germans and Americans were hardly the only ones looking and practicing effective infantry methods for breaking the stalemate.

Suppressive fire as such can even be given indirectly by long range artillery or MG barrage and produced locally and directly by use of section Lewis guns and mortars.

Interestingly, in accordance to the discussion of marching fire, while the Pedersan device was developed, the U.S. Army already employed a more than practical (albeit heavy) solution in the BAR, which by its very name and function gives it the position of being the world's first attempt at the"assault rifle" only missing the designation due to the size of its round and barrel length. It was created as you know to provide marching and/or suppressive fire along the parapet until his squad completed their advance.

[auchonvillerssomme]

The comments from posters who have tried this are perhaps not taking into account that firing a self loading or automatic weapon from the hip is slightly different to holding a bolt action rifle at hip level and working the bolt and then replacing the hand into a firing position and firing over and over. Perhaps at the same time removing the pin from a grenade with the teeth.

[Robert Dunlop]

Marching Fire was a concept bandied about by the AEF as a way of breaking the stalemate of trench warfare during the Great War.

The concept, as you described it later in the post, was already widely understood. Even the specifics of 'marching' with an automatic rifle and firing on the move was known, especially by the French. This technique was commonly used with the Chauchat, and would have been taught to the US troops that trained with French units.

Robert

[Thunderbox]

The comments from posters who have tried this are perhaps not taking into account that firing a self loading or automatic weapon from the hip is slightly different to holding a bolt action rifle at hip level and working the bolt and then replacing the hand into a firing position and firing over and over. Perhaps at the same time removing the pin from a grenade with the teeth.

Theres no real problem with it at all; I had a go on the range yesterday to test the effectiveness (no location details, no pack drill....).

With both bolt- and auto weapons you tend to clamp the butt into your waist with your forearm. In fact its not so much "from the hip" as "from the ribcage", and this also provides a natural lodgement point with most types of webbing.

[Piorun]

With respect, firing from the torso is entirely different from firing from the hip and shifts the thread right off topic (as have discussion on semi-automatic weapons and artillery). If we restrict ourselves to firing an SMLE "from the hip", we appear to come back to the feeling of many older Pals that it offered no advantage over firing from shoulder or torso. Indee, in the historic narratives, we may not be sure whether or not the protagonists were firing from torso or hip, the latter perhaps having been used simply to mean off-shoulder. Antony

[PhilB]

Don`t forget, gents, we`re talking WW1 trench warfare here. Bayonet fighting was seen as a necessary skill and much taught. That`s very close quarter work and here we are being told by a VC winner, no less, that at very close quarters it`s firing from the hip that is even more important than bayonet technique. Bear in mind that, when you`re looking along an SMLE at the shoulder, your field of vision is very restricted compared to hip firing - a distinct drawback in a hostile trench! Also, I suspect that reloading an SMLE could actually be quicker at the hip than the shoulder.

[MikB]

Don`t forget, gents, we`re talking WW1 trench warfare here. Bayonet fighting was seen as a necessary skill and much taught. That`s very close quarter work and here we are being told by a VC winner, no less, that at very close quarters it`s firing from the hip that is even more important than bayonet technique. Bear in mind that, when you`re looking along an SMLE at the shoulder, your field of vision is very restricted compared to hip firing - a distinct drawback in a hostile trench! Also, I suspect that reloading an SMLE could actually be quicker at the hip than the shoulder.

Yes - wasn't 'marching fire' an American Civil War development to take advantage of the fire-and-movement capability conferred by the Henry Rifle? If it was originally intended for use against opponents with rifle-muskets it's scarcely likely to be useful in a WW1 context. In any case, from what I've seen, the rifle was fired from chest - or as Piorun above said, ribcage level - allowing the soldier at least to point the gun with the line of the barrel within his field of view.

I can't really see from what's been posted whether Todger was shooting like that - but if he was, his success is easier to explain. If not, he may have been exceptionally skilled or exceptionally lucky. Thousands of soldiers may have attempted similar action and been rewarded with an ugly fate in place of the VC.

In any case, it seems unlikely that the level of training in this technique that could realistically have been provided would have borne much fruit.

Regards,

MikB

[Pete1052]

... wasn't 'marching fire' an American Civil War development to take advantage of the fire-and-movement capability conferred by the Henry Rifle?

No, the U.S. Government procured only about 1900 Henry Rifles during the Civil War and most of them went to the cavalry. Marching Fire wouldn't work with single-shot muzzleloaders unless you stopped the advance to allow soldiers to reload.

[MikB]

No, the U.S. Government procured only about 1900 Henry Rifles during the Civil War and most of them went to the cavalry. Marching Fire wouldn't work with single-shot muzzleloaders unless you stopped the advance to allow soldiers to reload.

I'd never expect it with muzzle-loaders. I just Googled "marching fire" and found it does seem to date from later - guess I was just shooting from the hip...

Regards,

MikB

[Pete1052]

Marching Fire is merely the old AEF name for a type of suppressive fire that all of the belligerent powers considered in one way or another during the Great War. No doubt every army had its own names for the technique. There can be too much of a good thing, and the U.S. Army is notorious for expending vast quantities of ammunition in undisciplined firing. It's okay during a meeting engagement or an attack, but some measure of control has to be established once the crisis is over.

[SiegeGunner]

Why does everyone seem to be supposing that firing from 'somewhere below the shoulder' needed special training. It is surely the natural stance of a man on the 'qui vive', especially in undergrowth or a confined area such as a trench.

[Pete1052]

Many of the photos of U.S. Infantrymen in Iraq and Afghanistan show them holding their weapons in a modified port arms position with the muzzle pointing diagonally downward. The index finger of the firing hand is extended outside the trigger guard to prevent negligent discharges.

[Richard Fisher]

Having looked through a number of manuals and pamphlets this evening, it appears that the first formal training of firing from the hip for close quarters wasn't until 1944 (Weapons Training Memorandum No. 7). These memorandums were issued to supplement formal training manuals where it wasn't included so it seems that if it was formalised at any time, it was removed from training and then reintroduced, or it was just informal tactics.

Regards

Richard

[truthergw]

There is no doubt that a 303 can be fired fairly rapidly from the hip as far as emptying the magazine is concerned. How accurate it would be, I don't know but I practiced it as a school cadet firing blanks. 5 rounds rapid as we advanced through whins, on the command of ' bullets'. It was intended to keep enemy heads down when aimed fire was not possible.Nothing like the kick of a live round but being done by a grown man and not a wee laddie, I doubt if that would make a big difference. We captured Fort George several times during a weeks camp. Mind, I expect the Camerons were on NAAFI break at the time. The Bren on a long sling was also do-able by school laddies although the tiddlers like me struggled. I was never asked or trained to do it in TA where we also were using 303s. As Dave says, firing from the hip is a natural sort of thing to try. Bayonet men accompanying bombers were already doing it and I expect most had one up the spout. As far as Phil's question goes, I always fall back on the idea that the instructors in the BEF were not all stupid. If firing from the hip had been thought to be a useful skill to acquire, I suspect men would have been ' encouraged' to do so. The fact that they were not, suggests to me that it was not considered a good idea. I suspect that it would be difficult to teach any kind of accuracy. I also suspect that musketry instructors will always be against any hair trigger, reflex action, preferring the rifleman to select a target and aim. Men were not trained to fire from the hip neither were they trained to throw themselves on grenades. It still happened and perhaps that underlines the difference between a VC winner and us ordinary mortals.

[MikB]

At a distance where your foeman subtends 20 or 30 degrees of arc I'm sure it's fine. At greater distances I reckon it only serves to demonstrate how many other places there are for your bullet to go. And in that situation, a miss is as good as a mile.

Regards,

MikB

[Gunner Bailey]

When the Germans developed the Sturmgewehr weapons during World War II the fully-automatic feature was included for use during assaults, hence the modern terms "assault weapon" and "assault rifle." Crew-served machine guns are heavy and difficult to move forward quickly during offensive operations; in fact the harnesses the Germans used to carry them led to the "chained to a machine gun" tales and myths. That having been said, the indiscriminate use of fully automatic fire that is only aimed in the general direction of the enemy wastes ammo very quickly, and it does not cause the enemy to take cover unless it hits very close to him.

Small point Pete. Hitler invented the term 'Assault Rifle' when he approved the MP43 so I'd not really classify it as a modern term. It came with the gun. The development of these guns was done because it was realised that most combat took place at 300 metres or under and there was a need for more firepower and less accuracy.

John

[18th Battalion]

I do remember reading about a technique of firing off 10 rounds from SMLE in 8-10 seconds, I've tried it dry firing and it does work, but with live rounds I'm not so sure because of the recoil?

Clamp the butt in your waist with your forearm and holding the bolt between thumb and fore-finger, cycle the action maintaining the grip on the bolt and squeezing the trigger with your middle finger, repeat as fast as possible.

If you have a SMLE or No.4 give it a go; if you break your middle finger award yourself a wound stripe.

Paul

[Pete1052]

Hitler invented the term 'Assault Rifle' ...

My point exactly. Sturmgewehr translates into assault weapon.

[Gunner Bailey]

I've just tried walking, dry firing and reloading my SMLE from the hip. Loading was easier than I thought and the rifle did stay roughly level, however I had no idea whether the rifle was level to within 10 dregrees or more above or below horizontal. With sights and a live rifle I'm a decent shot, from the hip I don't think I'd have much confidence of hitting a target, it would just be supressing fire.

John

[Thunderbox]

I've just tried walking, dry firing and reloading my SMLE from the hip. Loading was easier than I thought and the rifle did stay roughly level, however I had no idea whether the rifle was level to within 10 dregrees or more above or below horizontal. With sights and a live rifle I'm a decent shot, from the hip I don't think I'd have much confidence of hitting a target, it would just be supressing fire.

John

Accuracy comes very quickly with practice, as the body acquires "muscle memory". I found that, after just a few goes through a field firing battle run, soldiers were consistently hitting fig11 targets at 20-50m with rifle (L1A1) and SMG, and up to 100m with GPMG/LMG (3-5 round bursts) - all fired from the hip/out of the shoulder. Weapon "pointing" does work; the same principle applies to night shooting - its surprising how accurately soldiers can shoot a weapon they are familiar with, even when it is too dark to use the sights.

[Gunner Bailey]

Accuracy comes very quickly with practice, as the body acquires "muscle memory". I found that, after just a few goes through a field firing battle run, soldiers were consistently hitting fig11 targets at 20-50m with rifle (L1A1) and SMG, and up to 100m with GPMG/LMG (3-5 round bursts) - all fired from the hip/out of the shoulder. Weapon "pointing" does work; the same principle applies to night shooting - its surprising how accurately soldiers can shoot a weapon they are familiar with, even when it is too dark to use the sights.

Any video available?

John

[SiegeGunner]

Weapon "pointing" does work; the same principle applies to night shooting - its surprising how accurately soldiers can shoot a weapon they are familiar with, even when it is too dark to use the sights.

Highly-practised and experienced darts players use the same principle. Their body knows what stance to adopt and how to manoeuvre the arm to land the dart in the desired part of the board. With a point of reference (adopting the stance first or having a thread attached to the bullseye), a good player can do the same blindfold or in the dark. There are many very good blind darts players. Having acquired these instinctive skills, and assuming a high level of expertise and success, the real challenge is to let the body do what it knows needs to be done, without actively interfering by 'trying' too hard or allowing oneself to be put off by extraneous factors.

[MikB]

Highly-practised and experienced darts players use the same principle. Their body knows what stance to adopt and how to manoeuvre the arm to land the dart in the desired part of the board. With a point of reference (adopting the stance first or having a thread attached to the bullseye), a good player can do the same blindfold or in the dark. There are many very good blind darts players. Having acquired these instinctive skills, and assuming a high level of expertise and success, the real challenge is to let the body do what it knows needs to be done, without actively interfering by 'trying' too hard or allowing oneself to be put off by extraneous factors.

Well, all the dart players I see on the telly look carefully along the projectile and then throw it along the line their eye is literally supervising. That is nothing like shooting from the hip.

Regards,

MikB

[SiegeGunner]

The pressures of the level of competition that is shown on telly demand that 'shot by shot' sniper approach. An expert instinctive player, relying on innumerable hours of practice to imprint the requisite body angles and sequence of actions, will miss (but not by much) too often to aspire to that standard, but will nevertheless turn in formidable performances, dart after dart and day after day, which if translated into rifle-handling in a confined combat situation would be more than effective.

[PhilB]

Are there any lessons to be drawn from Wild West style gunfights where the gunman draws and fires from the hip - making all due allowances for artistic licence? Is it possible that they really could be that accurate from the hip? Previous posts indicate that, with enough practice, they could.