Camerons at Loos

[rayoung74]

Wotcha guys

Just a quick couple of questions.

1)At the battle of Loos would the Camerons have been in "Goverment" Tartan or did the Regt. have it's own?

2)What would their headgear have been?

Thanks

Youngie

[Piorun]

Cameron of Erracht was the tartan. I've seen a depiction in Brodie and trousers but my own understanding is that Balmoral and kilt was the dress. And you may want to take the apostrophe out of your sub-heading . Antony

[rayoung74]

Cameron of Erracht was the tartan. I've seen a depiction in Brodie and trousers but my own understanding is that Balmoral and kilt was the dress. And you may want to take the apostrophe out of your sub-heading . Antony

Right a Balmoral but coloured or the serge variety?

Youngie

P.S. apostrophe in the subtitle?

Edited 18 April , 2011 by Kate Wills
Don't worry Youngie. The apostrophes have been edited from the title

[Piorun]

khaki. A

[rayoung74]

khaki. A

Brilliant. Thanks for that. Theres an event coming up and it centres on the battle of Loos. I was thinking of putting together the correct kit for a Cameron for this.

Youngie

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant. Thanks for that. Theres an event coming up and it centres on the battle of Loos. I was thinking of putting together the correct kit for a Cameron for this.

Youngie

Something that Joe Sweeney had said about the introduction of ToS and Balmorals and my own recall of the Cameron's propensity for the dark blue glengarry made me wonder if they did in fact wear a bonnet as early as 1915 (Loos). It seems they might not have done and perhaps instead wore a glengarry (see enclosed photos). Hopefully others with a good knowledge of Scots units can comment.

[Piorun]

This is tricky. Frogsmile's pictures are from an absolutely reputable historical web-site. No question that 6 Camerons were dressed as shown. However, there is a famous painting of 7 Camerons at Hill 70 (Loos) which clearly shows them in Balmorals which are not dark coloured - in other words, khaki. The painting is the frontispiece of the battalion history so must be acceptably accurate. Maybe the battalions were wearing different headgear. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

This is tricky. Frogsmile's pictures are from an absolutely reputable historical web-site. No question that 6 Camerons were dressed as shown. However, there is a famous painting of 7 Camerons at Hill 70 (Loos) which clearly shows them in Balmorals which are not dark coloured - in other words, khaki. The painting is the frontispiece of the battalion history so must be acceptably accurate. Maybe the battalions were wearing different headgear. Antony

I have scoured for Cameron photographs (as opposed to paintings, one of which erroneously shows a chequered glengarry!) and the problem is that all of them show the glengarry being worn in 1915, irrespective of which battalion (even the 1st (Regular) battalion). There is no doubt that Balmorals/ToS was worn later in the war, but it does not seem to have been worn by the Camerons in 1915 and as that is what the original poster was asking..........

[Piorun]

I take your point, Frogsmile, but this is no ordinary artistic depiction. It is the Battalion's own commissioned representation of itself at Hill 70. It is the frontispiece of the official history of the Battalion and, as such, is not likely to be inaccurate as to headgear. Absent any other pictorial evidence of 7th battalion on Hill 70, the painting has to stand. However, OP can make of it what he will. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

I take your point, Frogsmile, but this is no ordinary artistic depiction. It is the Battalion's own commissioned representation of itself at Hill 70. It is the frontispiece of the official history of the Battalion and, as such, is not likely to be inaccurate as to headgear. Absent any other pictorial evidence of 7th battalion on Hill 70, the painting has to stand. However, OP can make of it what he will. Antony

As the OP is keen that his uniform be authentic another (perhaps best) option would be to confer with the regimental museum. Here are a couple more illustrations of the regiment, although one is a painting and thus not always 100% accurate.

[Piorun]

The painting I referred to is in the Highlanders Museum (that includes the Camerons). The one on the right above is well-known, especially for its spats and polished boots. For the last time and for the benefit of the OP, I don't need any more evidence as to what some Cameron's were wearing at some time. The 7th Battalion's own painted record of its heroic action at Loos Hill 70 shows it wearing Balmorals. There's nothing to argue about. If other battalions wore Glengarries, so be it. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

The painting I referred to is in the Highlanders Museum (that includes the Camerons). The one on the right above is well-known, especially for its spats and polished boots. For the last time and for the benefit of the OP, I don't need any more evidence as to what some Cameron's were wearing at some time. The 7th Battalion's own painted record of its heroic action at Loos Hill 70 shows it wearing Balmorals. There's nothing to argue about. If other battalions wore Glengarryies, so be it. Antony

Not my intent to "argue", but merely to provide reliable photographic "evidence" for the OP who had been given a categoric statement, as if fact, which was not entirely correct.

[FROGSMILE]

Wotcha guys

Just a quick couple of questions.

1)At the battle of Loos would the Camerons have been in "Goverment" Tartan or did the Regt. have it's own?

2)What would their headgear have been?

Thanks

Youngie

I thought you might like to see some more photographs of Cameron's of various battalions in 1915.

[Rob Bulloch]

Frogsmile..Any of the Cameron lads in the photographs you posted named by any chance. According to the 1st Bn Cameron History as of Oct 1914 this regarding headress. "Cap badges were not often seen. Either they had been given away to local inhabitants as souvenirs or they were worn inside the Glengarry cap as metal was considered too conspicuous on the blue bonnet, and apt to attract snipers bullets"

Aye Rob.

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile..Any of the Cameron lads in the photographs you posted named by any chance. According to the 1st Bn Cameron History as of Oct 1914 this regarding headress. "Cap badges were not often seen. Either they had been given away to local inhabitants as souvenirs or they were worn inside the Glengarry cap as metal was considered too conspicuous on the blue bonnet, and apt to attract snipers bullets"

Aye Rob.

There are names Rob, but I have not recorded them for the purposes of this thread. They can all be found on line relatively easily. They are a mixture of regulars, TF and war-raised Service battalions.

I am not surprised that a lot of the 1st Battalion lads removed, swapped, or gave away their badges. Several of the BEF Battalions reported the same thing.

[Piorun]

Not my intent to "argue", but merely to provide reliable photographic "evidence" for the OP who had been given a categoric statement, as if fact, which was not entirely correct.

As I had courteously acknowledged twice. We have an officially-commissioned regimental painting showing 7th Camerons in action on Hill 70 during Loos. We have a growing number of photographs that show various Camerons at various places at various times. None of these images, painted or otherwise, answers the OPs post entirely correctly. If we can get an officially-commissioned painting (not one of Kitchener's gallant actions series) or photograph that shows Camerons in action at Loos in Glengarries, then we'd all be delighted and the OP would have a definitive answer. For now, the available evidence appears to show that 7th wore Balmorals, others may have worn Glengarries. That last statement is factual. Antony

[Piorun]

Wotcha guys

Just a quick couple of questions.

1)At the battle of Loos would the Camerons have been in "Goverment" Tartan or did the Regt. have it's own?

2)What would their headgear have been?

Thanks

Youngie

Regarding 7th Battalion, "The Cameron soldiers' uniform at this time comprised a khaki tunic and kilt of the Cameron of Erracht tartan, protected by a khaki kilt cover. The diced topped stockings were covered by a type of leather hose (sic) . . . . Leather webbing and the snake-type belt were worn along with a khaki Tam o' Shanter as tin hats had not been introduced yet." (from A Sense of Duty: Richardson)

"All down the slopes towards Loos lay the tartans, Gordon and Black Watch, Seaforth and Cameron, like the drift left on the shore when the tide has ebbed." (Nelson's History of The War: John Buchan)

Youngie: I'm afraid that, depite reinforcing other evidence already mentioned with regard to 7th Battalion, this still leaves open the possibility that other Cameron battalions wore the Glengarry or even maybe another tartan. Although that last would seem to be unlikely, it was still relatively early in the War and it's not without the bounds of possibility. 7th had been issued with universal kilts in khaki drab at one point but they were quickly withdrawn. I'm sorry that I can't offer more than this. Antony

[truthergw]

According to the OH, the 5th Camerons (9th Div), wore dark blue glengarries in the attack on the Hohenzollern Redoubt, 25th September. All of the 26th brigade wore glengarries, and the attack was organised by the colour of the headgear.

[Piorun]

Thanks, Tom. It really does seem to have been a mixture dependant on battalion. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

As all will have seen, the photographic evidence and thus the most reliable, is conclusive that the vast 'majority' of Camerons battalions wore the dark blue glengarry in 1915 and that too is "fact" and particularly of key relevance in the context of the OP's enquiry that opened this thread. Ergo, unless the OP wants, specifically, to represent the 7th Battalion, he will be most authentic if he wears a dark blue glengarry. My understanding is that it is authenticity that he seeks and it is in that regard I am attempting to help him.

As an aside, it is also fact that the Cameron's were in general particularly attached to their dark blue glengarry, as apart from the Black Watch, who with the exception of the drums and pipes rarely wore it, most other Scots regiments wore a chequered glengarry in 1914-15, which left the Cameron's suitably 'distinguished' by theirs. As the only Line Regt of the Regular Army with a single regular battalion, this suited their natural desire to stand out from the rest very well.

This latter situation continued until their 1961 merger with the Seaforth Highlanders, when the new regiment elected to wear a dark blue balmoral bonnet with a red toorie when in SD/No2 Dress, and khaki ToS when in field dress.

[Piorun]

Indeed, ALL Camerons wore the dark blue Glengarry in 1915, including the 7th. I agree that the OP can't go wrong with a dark blue Glengarry unless he chooses to represent the 7th at Loos. My only reason for continuing the discussion was my disagreement with the method of drawing conclusions about Loos on the basis of the relevant evidence available and my personal annoyance that Frogsmile appears to grant no accommodation to evidence other than his own, no matter how compelling and no matter that none of the photographs posted were in action at Loos in the context of the OPs opening post. A sense of discourtesy seemed to pervade the dismissal of the evidence from the OH of the 7th and continues in an argument that photographic evidence is "the most reliable", even when it is not of the action in question. Anyway, enough. I return the thread to the OP with best wishes for his project. Antony

[FROGSMILE]

The evidence is not "my own", but the evidence of the camera and can be obtained by anyone, as it is freely available. I too wish the OP well in his project to achieve the authentic dress of a Cameron Highlander at Loos.

The unalterable fact remains that the original and seemingly categoric advice given to the OP was that he should wear a "Balmoral" (subsequently with the addendum of "khaki") to be authentic, and this was clearly untrue as a blanket statement. Hopefully this thread will have now ended with a more accurate assessment on the basis of advice from all the posters who have contributed.

[Piorun]

You are quite correct. I mis-spoke and apologise for that. I should have said, "to evidence other than that posted by himself".

On a more constructive tack; many of these photographs don't appear to show Cameron of Erracht tartan - although the Kitchener postcard is a possible attempt at it. Is this a trick of the old film or were several battalions wearing something else (government?) in early 1915? I can't see why, as the Erracht was in use from the founding - indeed, it was created for the Regiment. Most of the hose appear to be one colour. Again, the pc shows tartan hose. I favour the photos.

For the record, Camerons had two regular battalions from 1897 on.

It would be nice to get pictorial evidence of Loos. Isn't there a regimental painting in the Highlanders Museum of 6 Camerons at Loos?

Antony

EDIT The painting's by James Gray, I think. Anyone seen it?

[rayoung74]

Sorry guys I should have specified the battalion I was enquiring about at the start. It was the 6th Camerons that I was specifically interested in.

Apologies and thanks for the information.

Youngie

[Piorun]

Hello, Youngie. Frogsmile's good post no. 6 shows 6th Camerons in the top photo and appears on a record at Glasgow University headed "The Sixth Battalion Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders", sub-titled "Loos 1915" (the photo below also appears on that record but at least one of the chaps is wearing a diced Glengarry which isn't Camerons). The record appears to have been created in 2005 so, without seeing the original material, there remains some doubt as to where and when the photographs were taken. That's not a major issue. It is probable that 6th wore Glengarries in the battle. It is possible that they did not. If you write to the Highlanders Museum in Inverness or to the Cameron Museum at Fort George and ask them about "the Loos painting" of 6th Camerons by Gray, they will likely confirm what headgear they are wearing in that official painting. If Glengarries, this would dispel any doubts. Yours, Antony