Climbers died in the Great War

[CarylW]

Thanks for those AGWR. There's another page on that memorial that lists all those names and identifies them by service number and unit details but I notice they haven't identified the E Hartley, stating there are 38 CWGC entries for that name.

http://www.ww1-yorkshires.org.uk/html-files/great-gable.htm

In the contemporary document clickable from the page it says Geoffrey Winthrop Young read the eulogy

Interesting memorial and wonder how do-able that peak is to walk up? There are ladies in ordinary dress in the photos you posted so can't be too strenuous. Strange co-incidence indeed!

I was looking at the David Robertson book about Mallory on Amazon this morning, so have bought it for another whole penny + postage (the forum won't be making much commission from my recent purchases!)

The Slingsby name seemed familiar, no idea why but Googled him and found that there is a collection of his letters and diaries donated by family to the Liddell Hart centre King's College

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/summary/sl40-001.shtml

Caryl

[AGWR]

Interesting to hear that Slingsby's letters and diaries can be found at the Liddell Hart Centre.

This is the E Hartley in question:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=247784

It is worth mentioning that Howard Somervell was also a member of the club. He and Norton made a famous attempt on the summit of Everest just before the disappearance of Mallory and Irvine in 1924.

Regards,

AGWR

PS I have never visited the memorial, so I don't know how difficult the walk is.

[CarylW]

Found ths obituary in the Manchester Guardian 1917

"The Late Captain G T Ewen

With refernce to the death in action of Captain G T Ewen announced yesterday, a correspondant writes:

"Ewen was a Manchester man in the fullest sense, born and brought up in Manchester, educated at the Manchester Grammar School, and killed while leading a company of the Manchester Regiment into action. An enthusiastic and competent climber, he was familiar with most of the well-known climbs

in Cumberland, Wales and Scotland and in 1903 was already an occasional contributor on climbing matters to the Manchester Guardian and Courier.

Cave-exploring also had at one time a strong fascination for him. His first Swiss ascent the Titlis - was made in 1905. Within half a dozen years he had climbed, amongst others, the Allalinhorn, Mont Blanc, the Paradiso,

The Grivola, Scheckhorn, Finstersaahorn (ywice), Jungfrau, Wetterhorn, Grand Crombin Weisshorn (twice), Obergabelhorn, Monta Rosa, and Dent Blanche. All these with one exception, without guides and during short summer holidays of two to three weeks duration and resulted in his being elected a member of the Alpine Club in 1911

The members of the Rucksack Club, owe a great deal to Ewen. An original member, he was always most keenly interested in the club and it was his eagerness and enthusiusm which induced a somewhat reluctant committee to isssue under his able editorship, "The Rucksack Club Journal". The hills were to him a passion and in one of his last letters to the writer, remarked "This country is only redeemed from absolute mediocrity by the fact that from our present camp one can see snow-covered hills forming the Persian boundary, eighty miles away"

Found a few other interesting articles printed during wartime about how quiet the Fells were and that sometimes soldiers on leave from the trenches or training camps came back for a days climbing and also a party of convalescents from a Military Hospital. Also an article about how some climbers had found mountaineering the 'best possible training for soldiering' Will post that later

Caryl

[truthergw]

edit.................

Yes, you're right Tom

Wonder if climbing and coping with such terrible conditions in the ice an snow made them more able to cope with life in the trenches, especially during freezing conditions. Maybe they knew a thing or two about preventing frostbite and were able to advise the OR's

More edit.......................................

Caryl

..........................

Hi Caryl,

Northern France has the same special danger that the Scottish Highlands do. They are cold and wet. Alpine gear is usually unsuitable for Scots hills because it is intended for colder but dry conditions. The killer in Scotland is alpine clothing getting wet and losing its insulating properties. Their experience in the Alps would help with the extreme cold causing frostbite but the fact that trenchfoot was combatted with whale oil and grease suggests to me remedies from seafaring men. Trawlermen had some remedies for problems hauling ropes and nets in freezing conditions. Flooded trenches not cold enough to freeze posed their own problem. Winter gear in Scotland until modern synthetics came alond relied heavily on thick, densely woven wool. i.e. tweed. Wool is windproof and retains much of its insulating ability even when wet. The solution as far as one was found, was engineering and construction to combat flooding and keeep the men's feet dry. Until that was implemented, not letting the feet remain wet for prolonged periods was the only remedy.

[CarylW]

Thanks Tom. That was enlightening.

Part of an article from the Manchester Guardian 1918. It's also in The Times

Mountaineering and War

"Many mountain climbers found out during the war that their mountaineering had been the best

possible training for soldiering, What most new infantrymen find the hardest part of their work - the making of longish marches with anything up to 80lb strapped on to their persons and carried in the hand - comes easily to the guideless climber, because it is what he has been doing for fun on all his holidays.

The pack in the small of the back, the highly constricted belt, the cut of the straps into the shoulder, the dour, unlovable boots, the rifle, which there is no perfect way of carrying for ever - all these, in but slightly different forms, have been the play-things of his leasure, and if the walking be duller on Salisbury Plain it is rougher on the Zmutt Glacier. On active service too, the possibility of dismaying a mountaineer with any lack of amenity in his quarters is specially limited the airless billet or dampest dug-out being no more than a formidable rival to the Roththal hut and the old ruined Stockje hut as the least eligible residences in Europe. No wonder that the French, the Italian, and the Swiss Alpine Corps are each the pick of it's country's whole army. We have no Alpine Corps but British mountaineers, as a body, found their way so naturally into soldiering

that for four years the sport has been dormant to a degree perhaps unnatained by any other...............The Rock and Fell Club has suffered as a fellowship of young men and climbers was certain to do... G.W."

Caryl

[CarylW]

...snipped...

On 8th June 1924 the Fell and Rock Climbing Club unveiled its war memorial tablet on the summit of Great Gable ...........sniiped...

Looking at information about Great Gable, I see that a remembrance service is held on the summit of Great Gable every November 11th. I bet that can be quite hairy at times in bad weather conditions

Caryl

[CarylW]

The programme 'Lost on Everest - the search for Mallory & Irvine' is on Youtube (one of the team interviewed on camera had the opinion that because so many had been lost in the recent war and with the spirit of self sacrifice of that age and with so many distinguished people on the expedition Mallory may have felt that he wanted to prove himself and this was something worth dying for) The old footage is remarkable. It's in 5 parts starting here:

Caryl

[AGWR]

Caryl,

Many thanks for posting this Youtube link.

Regards,

AGWR

[CarylW]

Now read both of the books recommended to me in this thread Ghosts of Everest

George Mallory David Robertson. Couldn't put either of them down!

Very interesting and between them more than answer my original queries about George Mallory's suitability as a choice for the Everest expedition given that many climbing contemporaries were killed in the Great War - it's apparent that he was an excellent climber and also very fit and would most probably or even certainly have been chosen anyway. An interesting man all round, with many qualities

Also makes it clearer just who his contemporaries were. Rupert Brooke was the first of his friends to die in the war. Robert Graves was a pupil of his and also a friend with only ten years between tham (Robert Graves letters to Ruth Mallory's widow after his death were illuminating as were hers to him) Also, David Robertson's book mentions that most of Cambridge were climbers of some sort at that time. Much about Mallory's time in service during the war and his letters home

So many mentions of Birkenhead in the Robertson book. George Mallory climbing on the roof of the vicarage at Birkenhead and more. George Mallory writes home to his mother from the last and fatal expedition speculating about what the Birkenhead News would make of him and Irvine reaching the summit

(Incidentally I found a mention of the Irvine family in the Birkenhead News during the war with a picture of a Dr Irvine and his brother a Lieut Irvine in uniform, but my camera wasn't set up properly and it turned out a blur when I later transferred them to PC, but I'll go back and find it again)

Also, interesting to read about were all his old climbing haunts in north Wales (I lived and worked in Nant Gwynant, nr Beddgelert, at one time and visited and walked up many of the hills mentioned, and socialised in the climbing 'Inns', although I never did any 'rock climbing', only scrambling over rocks!)

Can't understand why I haven't read anything about George Mallory and Andrew Irvine before, given my interest in climbing and the fact that they were from Birkenhead! Must do a write up on them

Caryl

[Michelle Young]

Visited Seigfried Herford today at Browns Road, and paid my respects.

Michelle

[Myrtle]

Caryl

Have you read "The Heart of Lakeland" yet?

[CarylW]

Caryl

Have you read "The Heart of Lakeland" yet?

No Myrtle and thanks for reminding me. I paid for this via Paypal on the 11th April and have not received the book yet. Sent him a message and a page came up telling me that the seller will be away until after May 3rd. Charming!

[old joe]

Also in the book Dark Summit Nick Heil, he writes about another climber with Great War connections who was a bit of a celebrity at the time, Maurice Wilson, a former lieutentant in the British Army (Looked him up: West Yorks Regiment, awarded a Military Cross). Apparently post war when he was sick and despondant he went to a faith healer who 'cured' him and he later had an epiphany and decided he was going to fly a plane to Tibet and climb Everest himself. In 1934, he did attempt to climb a few times before losing his life. His body was found in 1935. Another interesting man and there is more about him in a book Here

Maurice Wilson was a most remarkable man, in fact there is another thread on great war movies and a good movie could be made about his sometimes troubled life and the year long air and land journey to meet his sad fate on Mount Everest. Despite the efforts of British authorities during his 8000 km. flight to India to try to dissuade him and turn him back he still found a way to get to the mountain. Unfortunately he was poorly prepared for this type of mountaineering and paid the full price.

Another member of the 1922 and 1924 Everest expeditions and a man who did several very high altitude climbs with Mallory was Howard Somervell. A surgeon of the RAMC from 1915 to 1918, he was Mentioned in Despatches during his service. During the battle of the Somme he spent time during breaks from surgery with hundreds of severely wounded men waiting for treatment and was deeply moved by the fact that none requested to be treated ahead of the others. He was deeply affected by the war and would spend many years practicing medicine in India after the Everest expeditions finished. Eventually he retired to England and served as President of the Alpine Club for a period of time before his death in 1975.

[CarylW]

Just out of interest, came across some interesting snippets regarding the Irvine and Leigh-Mallory's in the local Birkenhead rag

Dr Irvine, who was Andrew Irvine's uncle, was the doctor on board the ship Hogue, but luckily was rescued on this very fateful day when the Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were lost.

First snippet, Birkenhead News

Doctor on the Hogue

Dr Irvine among the rescued

The doctor of the cruiser Hogue was Dr Leonard Cockburn Irvine, fourth son of Mr and Mrs James Irvine, of 18 Devonshire-road, Oxton Birkenhead

.........In May, the doctor joined the Royal Naval Reserve as a surgeon. He offered his services to the admiratly, and two days before the war broke out

he was drafted to the cruiser Hogue...

The second snippet:

League of Honour

For Women and Girls of the Empire

On Monday evening a very large gathering of women and girls assembled in the Y.M.C.A. Hall, when a meeting was held in connection with the League of Honour for Women and Girls of the Empire

which was inaugurated in Birkenhead last week.

The meeting was called for the purpose of explaining the objects of the League and enrolling members. The chair was occupied by

Miss Annie A Laird, who was supported on the platform by......There were two lady speakers - Mrs H Leigh Mallory and Mrs Irvine who each gave a brief explanation of the objects of the League...

80th Division, Yes, Maurice Wilson was a very remarkable man and agree, a movie would be good. These men really had a true spirit of adventure in bushels back then

I was amazed by the description of the clothing worn by the climbers and in particular those on George Mallory when he was found, even though he had several layers of wool. (in the books mentioned above) It's a wonder they survived to venture as far up as they did. George Bernard Shaw apparently made a very pithy observation on seeing a party of climbers assembled at base camp.(?) Something along the lines of "They look as if they are dressed for a picnic and have been surprised by a flurry of snow" (it's in one the books above, I'll look for it then correct if wrong)

Myrtle, after informing the book seller that my book hadn't arrived they told me it must have been lost in the post and kindly gave me a refund

I'll try to get hold of another copy

Caryl

[WhiteStarLine]

The programme 'Lost on Everest - the search for Mallory & Irvine' is on Youtube (one of the team interviewed on camera had the opinion that because so many had been lost in the recent war and with the spirit of self sacrifice of that age and with so many distinguished people on the expedition Mallory may have felt that he wanted to prove himself and this was something worth dying for)

Caryl

I saw this when it was first broadcast. The respect the team had for Mallory was very impressive. The unpaid bill they pulled from his wallet was clearly legible. Nice to see the story has a WW1 angle.

[CarylW]

Another uncle of Andrew Irvine the climber and brother to Dr Irvine from the Hogue (see above)

Birkenhead News 1914

Dr Irvine's Soldier brother

"Mr and Mrs Irvine's fifth son, Walter Lytte Irvine is also serving his country. He is a Lieutenant in the National Reserve (Class 2), West Lancashire and is at present training reservists. Mr Irvine was a Lieutenant in the 4th Battalion Cheshire Regiment for five years, which commission he resigned in January last, like his brother he is an old Birkenhead schoolboy and is well known on the cricket field in Birkenhead Park"

(Another snippet: Noticed in the book Death Storm, that prior to his expedition to Everest in 1996, the actor/adventurer Brian Blessed was given General Bruce's old ice-axe by the family of the famous climber)

Caryl

[David_Blanchard]

Hello,

Anyone who is interested in this thread I would recommend reading:

"Into the Silence: The Great War, Mallory and the Conquest of Everest by Wade Davis"

Guardian Review by Geoff Dyer, who wrote "The Missing of the Somme"

My link

[armourersergeant]

Brigadier General Cecil Godfrey Rawling had planned to make a climb of Everest in 1914/15 but the war got in the way. He was a renowned explorer of his time but rarely comes up in modern writing. He mapped a fair bit of Everest and the surrounding area when part of the expedition to Tibet in 1904/05.

I would be interested if anyone comes across any mentions of him.

Here is my bio of him on website. http://www.21stdivision1914-18.org/rawling.htm

Regards

Andy

[Fovant]

I have been up Great Gable after the remembrance ceremony and seen the poppies there. It must be one of the most stunningly positioned memorials to the fallen anywhere. On one visit, while staying at the Wasdale Head Inn, I met an elderly lady with her grand children and great-grandchildren, whose brother was one of those commemorated on the summit plaque.

Edited 23 November , 2020 by Fovant

[CarylW]

TJJ

That is a stunning photograph! Really hope to visit that particular memorial myself one day

David, Into the Silence: The Great War, Mallory and the Conquest of Everest by Wade Davis, is on my Christmas wish list.

[TGM]

 

 

Worth listening back to Radio 5Live after 14:00ish (?) 23/11/2020 for an interview with Ed Caesar on his biography about Great War veteran Maurice Wilson:
 
The Moth and the mountain: a true story of love, war, and Everest.

 

 He also talks more broadly about what inspired war veterans to travel/explore in the 1920s and 1930s.

[mandy hall]

On the Daily Mail yesterday, as well, about the above book

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8976261/Maurice-Wilson-wanted-crash-land-plane-walk-Everest-fly-climb.html

 

Mandy

[KernelPanic]

On 30/10/2011 at 01:31, David_Blanchard said:

Hello,

Anyone who is interested in this thread I would recommend reading:

"Into the Silence: The Great War, Mallory and the Conquest of Everest by Wade Davis"

Guardian Review by Geoff Dyer, who wrote "The Missing of the Somme"

My link

 

I wholeheartedly second David's endorsement of Wade Davis's book. It's a great read from many angles, including the WW1 experiences of some members of the various early 1920s expeditions to Everest, an account of TIbet at that time, and the remarkable courage and skills of the climbers. They really did belong to an extraordinary generation.

[David_Blanchard]

Well, you might like this book- came out last week- similar to ‘Into the Silence’ a Bradford soldier in the Great War attempted to climb Everest solo in the 1930s- a great British eccentric.

Following this topic. 

Edited 25 November , 2020 by David_Blanchard

[KernelPanic]

7 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Well, you might like this book- came out last week- similar to ‘Into the Silence’ a Bradford soldier in the Great War attempted to climb Everest solo in the 1930s- a great British eccentric.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a great read. I've just kindled it ... (is that really a verb? )