Climbers died in the Great War

[CarylW]

A book I'm reading at the moment Dark Summit Nick Heil has the following passage about the climber Greg Leigh Mallory, who of course, along with Andrew Irvine (a Birkenhead man) was killed on an Everest expedition in 1924 (Mallory's body found in 1999)

"When he was recruited to the reconnaissance team in 1921, he had distinguished himself as a good, though not necessarily great, climber. Mallory himself was initially ambivalent about the project, but World War 1 had decimated the ranks of his climbing contempories and Mallory was one of the few able-bodied talents still standing"

Found this very interesting, maybe he wouldn't have been chosen, or was a poor choice if his contempories had survived the war and there were more capable men to choose from. Who were his 'climbing contempories' killed in action during the Great War?

I know they weren't killed climbing, before anyone points that out to me. I'm assuming they volunteered or were recruited into the forces

Caryl

[Myrtle]

This may have been one of the climbers you are looking for.

Name: OPPENHEIMER, LEHMANN JAMES

Initials: L J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: London Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd/23rd Bn.

Age: 48

Date of Death: 08/11/1916

Additional information: Born at Manchester. Eldest son of Ludwig and Susan McCulloch Oppenheimer (nee Findlay), of Montrose; married Edith, daughter of Richard Newton, of Manchester. By profession a designer of Mosaics. Was an Artist (Exhibitor at the Royal Academy). Member of the English "Climbers Club" and "Fell and Rock Club of the English Lake District," and author of "The Heart of Lakeland.".

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: VII. B. 11.

Cemetery: BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY

[Myrtle]

There are also a couple of names in this link that may be worth checking out.

LINK

[CarylW]

Thanks for those Myrtle. That's a very detailed 'Additional information' on the CWGC entry! J Oppenheimer was obviously a man of many talents. After seeing your post, I found a copy of his book "The Heart of Lakeland" (1908) for sale on ebay, so bought it!

Caryl

[Myrtle]

Caryl

I would be interested to hear what his book is like when you have had a chance to look at it.

[ianw]

I seem to recall that Robert Graves climbed with Mallory as a student at Charterhouse when Mallory was a teacher. He records his impressions in "Goodbye to All That". Graves regarded him as a great climber and Mallory did complete the most difficult climb in Britain alone and unaided.

I also recall that the German ex-pat community in Britain just before the Great War were very keen on climbing and no doubt they contributed their share to the losses of climbers in 1914-1918.

[AGWR]

Caryl,

Mallory's mentor, Geoffrey Young, who had organised pre-war climbing weekends at Pen-y-Pass, later calculated that out of sixty climbers, whose names were recorded in the guest book, 23 had been killed and 11 wounded by the end of the war. Among their number was Siegfried Herford, a talented rock climber and friend of GLM: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=188954 Young himself (one of the leading British Alpinists of the pre-war period) lost his left leg below the knee as result of wounds sustained in Italy. From memory, I think that Young was in charge of a Friends Ambulance Unit at the time.

It is an interesting point that you raise about whether Mallory would have been selected for the Everest expedition if more of his contemporaries had survived the war. My view is that he would still have been one of the first names on the list, despite his reputation for being notoriously absent-minded!

Regards,

AGWR

[CarylW]

Caryl

I would be interested to hear what his book is like when you have had a chance to look at it.

Myrtle

I'll let you know. We're going up to the Lakes soon for a break so hopefully the book will arrive before then and I'll read it up there. That was good timing!

I seem to recall that Robert Graves climbed with Mallory as a student at Charterhouse when Mallory was a teacher. He records his impressions in "Goodbye to All That". Graves regarded him as a great climber and Mallory did complete the most difficult climb in Britain alone and unaided.

The Graves connection is very interesting Ian. I must try to get hold of a copy of a book, (noticed a few on Amazon) that records more about Mallory himself, his contempories and the ill-fated expedition. He must indeed have been a great climber as you say. It's never been proved that he didn't make it to the summit of Everest has it (despite him saying he would leave a photo of his wife on the summit and one wasn't found on his body)but he certainly climbed great heights without the equipment they have today. I read quite a bit about high peak mountaineering, especially Everest. All fascinating, to me anyway (no idea why because I don't do it)

Also in the book Dark Summit Nick Heil, he writes about another climber with Great War connections who was a bit of a celebrity at the time, Maurice Wilson, a former lieutentant in the British Army (Looked him up: West Yorks Regiment, awarded a Military Cross). Apparently post war when he was sick and despondant he went to a faith healer who 'cured' him and he later had an epiphany and decided he was going to fly a plane to Tibet and climb Everest himself. In 1934, he did attempt to climb a few times before losing his life. His body was found in 1935. Another interesting man and there is more about him in a book Here

AGWR, thanks for your interesting reply

Caryl

[truthergw]

In Britain, prior to the Great War, climbing was almost completely confined to middle and upper class men. Most serious climbers went to the Alps to learn, which required a fair degree of leisure time as well as disposable income. The same class who would have been recruited as subalterns. That suggests that climbers may have been liable to severe attrition. I expect deer stalking would show a similar affect as might tennis and croquet playing.

[ianw]

Caryl,

I have the book about the expedition that discovered Mallory's body. A good read and I seem to recall that it shows Mallory as a careful climber and very much respected. I think that he had some reticence to go but was very much wanted by the expedition management and he was pretty much compelled to go by his own sense of loyalty to his country and friends.

[SiegeGunner]

Mallory's mentor, Geoffrey Young, who had organised pre-war climbing weekends at Pen-y-Pass, later calculated that out of sixty climbers, whose names were recorded in the guest book, 23 had been killed and 11 wounded by the end of the war. Among their number was Siegfried Herford, a talented rock climber and friend of GLM: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=188954 Young himself (one of the leading British Alpinists of the pre-war period) lost his left leg below the knee as result of wounds sustained in Italy. From memory, I think that Young was in charge of a Friends Ambulance Unit at the time.

He was indeed in charge of a Friends' Ambulance Unit in Italy, Andrew. I had the pleasure of knowing Geoffrey Young's nephew, Wayland Young (2nd Baron Kennet), the son of Geoffrey's brother Edward Hilton Young (later Lord Kennet), who commanded a battery with the RN Siege Guns on the Belgian Coast and later lost his right arm at Zeebrugge. If I remember correctly, Geoffrey continued climbing after the war, despite the loss of his lower leg. In those days everyone seems to have had notable brothers, and George Mallory's brother was of course Trafford Leigh Mallory.

Mick

[franzmaximilian]

One who cannot be forgotten is Sepp Innerkofler.

See this link for more details on his life and his fate.

Franz

[CarylW]

Caryl,

I have the book about the expedition that discovered Mallory's body. A good read and I seem to recall that it shows Mallory as a careful climber and very much respected. I think that his reticence to go was greeted by dismay amongst the expedition management and he was pretty much forced to go by being told firmly but gently that he owed a duty of loyalty to his country.

That's quite sad Ian

Wonder if Everest would have been officially summitted earlier than 1953 if more climbers had survived the war. Maybe another "What if...?" of the consequences of the war. We'll never know

Found a couple of free books (with Kindle versions) at archive.org Mount Everest: The Reconnaissance 1921 Lieut.-Gol. G. K. Howard-Bury, D.S.O. Here and another, same author, The Assault on Mount Everest 1922, Here with contributions by George Leigh Mallory with his part in the reconnaissance team and the 1922 expedition

The third book in the trilogy The Fight for Everest 1924, same author, doesn't seem to be there (yet, maybe it will be)

From a quick glance at the text, there appear to be a few other Great War veterans on both expeditions, not to mention the author himself who led the expeditions.

(Incidentally, George Mallory II of Australia, grandson of George Mallory was part of the American team climbing Everest in 1995)

In Britain, prior to the Great War, climbing was almost completely confined to middle and upper class men. Most serious climbers went to the Alps to learn, which required a fair degree of leisure time as well as disposable income. The same class who would have been recruited as subalterns. That suggests that climbers may have been liable to severe attrition. I expect deer stalking would show a similar affect as might tennis and croquet playing.

Yes, you're right Tom

Wonder if climbing and coping with such terrible conditions in the ice an snow made them more able to cope with life in the trenches, especially during freezing conditions. Maybe they knew a thing or two about preventing frostbite and were able to advise the OR's

Read something in a book written recently about an expedition up Everest, where the author had likened one stage of it in awful icy freezing conditions to life in the trenches for the soldiers of WW1. Can't remember if it was Facing Up Bear Grylls. Every book I read these days seems to take me back to the Great War, or it's mentioned in some part of it!

Just when I think I can read about other topics for a change

Caryl

Edit: Just noticed your post Franz. Brave man, many thanks for posting about him

[seaJane]

Great link Franz - thank you for that.

[ianw]

In the excellent "Ghosts of Everest", Mallory is quoted as saying in a letter to his father :-

"We have both thought it would look rather grim to see others, without me, engaged in conquering the summit ... My present feeling is that I have to look at it

from the point of view of loyalty to the expedition and of carrying through on a task begun."

Mallory had by this time secured a lecturer's position at Cambridge and had 3 children and a comfortable home. One can understand his reticence. At 38 , he was also getting a bit old for such a task.

He confided in his friend Geoffrey Keynes that he was facing a war rather than an adventure and that he did not believe he would return alive.

His not going was not an option. He had the "right stuff" in bucketloads - Winchester, Magdalen, friend of the "Bloomsbury Group". An English hero and more than a little obsessed by Everest. The expedition committee discussed whether it was fair to ask him knowing that if asked, he could not refuse. However, if he were not asked, would he feel insulted?

The 1924 expedition ceratinly had a good selection of military men. It was led by the non-climbing General Charles Granville Bruce and the Climbing Leader was Lt-Col Edward Felix Norton together with his brother Capt Geoffrey Bruce as transport officer. Capt John Noel was the photographer. Major Richard Hingston was M.O.

[Myrtle]

If I remember correctly, Geoffrey continued climbing after the war, despite the loss of his lower leg.

Geoffrey Young continued climbing for fifteen years after he was injured. He used an artificial leg that he had designed himself. The leg had a detachable foot and a variety of soles including a rubber pad and one studded with nails.

[CarylW]

......snipped... In those days everyone seems to have had notable brothers, and George Mallory's brother was of course Trafford Leigh Mallory.

Mick

Trafford Leigh Mallory certainly had an interesting and illustrious military career during both wars and I see that he too died tragically, becoming the most senior officer in the RAF to be killed during WW2

Just discovered that their father Rev Herbert Leigh-Mallory was vicar at St John's Church Birkenhead, early 1900's and during the war years

(everything seems to bring me back to Birkenhead too - or Liverpool!)

Interesting snippets detailing George Leigh Mallory's experiences in the Royal Artillery during WW1, with letters written home to his wife and more about his contempories, including quotes from Robert Graves and Geoffrey Winthrop Young about their belief that he did conquer Everest

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmalloryG.htm

Also read in a biography of Andrew Irvine that during the first world war as a schoolboy (in Birkenhead!) he apparently "...sent the War Office a design for an interrupter gear to allow a machine gun to fire from a propeller-driven aeroplane without damaging the propeller's blades"

Caryl

[CarylW]

In the excellent "Ghosts of Everest", .....

Thanks for that recommendation Ian. Ordered the book from Amazon (costing one whole penny + postage!)

Look forward to reading it

Caryl

[ianw]

Caryl,

Mine cost a quid from a charity shop - but a damn good read nonetheless! Enjoy.

[ianw]

Also read in a biography of Andrew Irvine that during the first world war as a schoolboy (in Birkenhead!) he apparently "...sent the War Office a design for an interrupter gear to allow a machine gun to fire from a propeller-driven aeroplane without damaging the propeller's blades"

Caryl

He was indeed a mechanical whizz and apparently spent all his spare time on the expedition making the oxygen equipment work properly.

[AGWR]

He was indeed in charge of a Friends' Ambulance Unit in Italy, Andrew. I had the pleasure of knowing Geoffrey Young's nephew, Wayland Young (2nd Baron Kennet), the son of Geoffrey's brother Edward Hilton Young (later Lord Kennet), who commanded a battery with the RN Siege Guns on the Belgian Coast and later lost his right arm at Zeebrugge. Mick

I bet that he had some stories to tell ... You must tell me more about him at the next London Pals meeting.

Regards,

AGWR

[AGWR]

BTW 'The Fight for Everest' has been reprinted in recent years.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fight-Everest-1924-F-Norton/dp/8177691783

It is a fascinating account of how a body of remarkable men gave Everest their best shot in 1924. Furthermore, it is beautifully written ... Well worth a read.

Mallory has been the subject of several biographies over the years. My personal favourite is this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/George-Mallory-David-Robertson/dp/0571203140/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302771223&sr=1-1

Regards,

AGWR

[AGWR]

Caryl,

Here are some more names for you.

On 8th June 1924 the Fell and Rock Climbing Club unveiled its war memorial tablet on the summit of Great Gable (for a picture of the dedication ceremony, see: http://manage.hotscot.net/customer_images/FA00F036-E183-44C7-A38C-40C3F0D4FE18/archive%20photos/dedication%20war%20memorial.jpg).

Of the Club's 68 members, 19 were listed on the tablet:

J. Gordon Bean

H.S.P Blair

J. Clay

J. Neville Fletcher

W.H.B Gross

Edmund Hartley

S.W. Herford

Stanley Jeffcoat

E.B. Lees

S. J. Linzell

L.J. Oppenheimer

A.J. Pritchard

A.M. Rimer

R.B. Sanderson

H.L. Slingsby

G.C Turner

B.H. Whitley

J. Haworth Whitworth

Claude S. Worthington

You can see a couple of pictures here:

http://www.leaney.org/lake_district_fell_photo.php?fell_id=great_gable&photo=20041212g

http://www.thelakelandfells.com/lake_district_walk_photo.php?walk_id=842&photo=20081109h&thumb=Y

By a bizarre coincidence (which I have only just noticed!) 8th June 1924 was the day on which Mallory and Irvine went missing on Everest ...

Regards,

AGWR

Edited 14 April , 2011 by AGWR

[ianw]

WHB Grosse does not appear on the CWGC. Might he have been a German member? The same might apply to AW Rimer.

[AGWR]

Sorry, two typos on my part. I think these are the men commemorated on the tablet:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=787901

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=401183

Regards,

AGWR